Rene - HFY Champion!

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by reneritchie
David,

Thank you for wanting to be part of the solution! That is 21/45th of the battle!

On this thread, something controversial would be a good solid HFY question for me to sink my teeth into! Please have at it!

Candle in the wind, etc.

Rene - your sarcasm is duely noted. Your insults continue to shine bright, acting as a beakon to those with identity issues.

"quote:
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Originally posted by reneritchie

Thank you for wanting to be part of the solution! That is 21/45th of the battle!
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Admirable precision.

Cheers." - John Wieland

-David

[byond1]

...hey ren......hhmmmmm...please stay away from those burning roaches they will kill you...............

side note...have you ever met the nan anh guys around the block from ye?? ya know thee yuen chai wan school?? what is there slt like? (and to tie this into hfy champ) and how would you compare it to hfy slt? how about yks slt?
and where on earth is the "temple of the diamond" that supposidly ycw learned wck from fok bo???

[passing_through]

Before you start learning, a punch is a punch. As you learn, a punch is not a punch. When you have learned, a punch is just a punch.

A punch is a punch - This is an example of Fau Kiu (floating bridge). Punching (and by extension, fighting in general) is something you just know how to do. It's an instinct. You're born with some idea of how to deliver a strike. Is it effective? *shrug* At this level of awareness, you don't really know and can’t evaluate (and don’t care). You're fighting based on instinct and emotion. People at this stage tend to have no awareness of time/space so they only think of how to maximize power - such as by drawing the fist back before throwing the punch.

A punch is not a punch - This is an example of Saan Kiu. You no longer think about emotion or instinct when punching. Punching becomes a certain time, space and energy. It's attributes - relaxation, power, focus, mobility, being dynamic. It's connecting the body - punch with the feet, ankle, knee, hip, waist, shoulder, elbow, wrist, finger. It's different strategic situations, different distances for different types of punches. It's very much more than just throwing a punch. This is why "a punch is not a punch" - it's all the various learning experiences and angles to understand "punch". You see through all the shades and learn.

A punch is a punch - This is an example of Weng Kiu, following after the previous two statements. From the outside, it seems that you're back where you started - you've come full circle back to a natural state. However, you're changed for having the Saan Kiu experience. A Weng Kiu punch and a Fau Kiu punch might look similar but they are worlds apart. Think of coming full circle but - instead of being on the same place (a flat circle) you've traveled up to a new place (a three-dimensional spiral). When seen from overhead, it still looks like a circle - but when seen from the side, it had a height.

The above only describes one example of Saam Mo Kiu progression – one of many within the system. There are layers within layers - Saam Mo Kiu experiences for learning individual components but also a Saam Mo Kiu experience going through the whole system.

[passing_through]

In martial arts – as in all reality - people play many different roles. Trying to keep everyone happy is the unique role of the diplomat. Knowing what turns of phrase are required to get people to your way of thinking is a unique skill. For the soldier or the scientist, at some point a stand has to be taken. In the past there might have been more energetic exchanges of energy due to a focus on expressing truth. This will cause conflict. So, I commend the diplomats for paving the way to communication, however accurate it may or may not be. So long as there is a bridge, communication can be clarified later.

Kung fu in any medium other than personal experience, no matter how precise the terms used by the person explaining, will always lose something in the explanation.

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

[Marcos Hsiang]

Thank you, Victor Sifu, for your attention.
However I still carry these doubts regarding HFY and TWC:
1 - What's Cheung Sifu's allegations on why he's the only Ip Man's heir to teach such a different version of WCK, mostly considering it's similar to HFY?
2 - Why is such a version to be called the "Traditional" one? Would it have to do with Hung Suen/Hung Fa Yi being really the most traditional of the WCK systems?
3 - Could Gee Sifu have learnt his WCK from one of Ip Man's collegues under Leung Bik (considering Victor Sifu's statement on the other thread)?
4 - Why on earth none of Gee Sifu's sihings are openly known?
5 - Can you, Victor, ask Cheung about it?
6 - Can you, Rene or Chango, ask Gee Sifu about it?
7 - Can anyone answer anything for sure on this theme?

Hsiang

[yuanfen]

samm mo kiu- sounds like experienced teaching common sense plus
unnnecessary jargon.

[Chango]

Hsiang,

When you ask me to ask my Sigung GM Gee such questions. You really should know that he has said that he does not know GM William Cheung. The HFY lineage has been laid out for you. there is no connection to the Ip man lineage. Please keep this in mind when asking such questions. When more is brought to the front about HFY you will find that it is very different. I hope in the future you can have a first hand experience with a HFY member so you can see things for yourself. I still stand by the fact that no matter how much we type or write we can never have the accuracy that HFY information demands.

Rene,
I understand your point. I would not be so quick to pat myself on the back. I have to admit that your thread does stand well in the areana of polotics. (I mean this in the most respectful since) But we still have to ask ourselves are you building bridges or helping more people to make assumptions and assertions that will lead to more confusion? yes we have to take baby steps if you will
but make sure those steps are tward better understanding and not confusion. Once again maybe you can use you time managment skills to manage the time to consult with a qualified HFY member to help you not make such general statements or allow confusion to accure. I mean if you insist on being some sort of champion using the HFY name the least you could do is make sure that your information is accurate. This isn't about my opinion on you or yours on the HFY family. It's about being accurate. I hope you see my point here.


Saat geng sau

[William E]

Hsaing

If you are new to this forum, then you are asking the same questions that have been asked/answered many different times in the recent past by Rene, Chango and myself.

Are there similarities between the different styles of Wing Chun? Of course there are… It is my belief that Wing Chun evolved from the same ancestors, thus there are similarities that are common to each style.

But if you are looking for a comparison of Wing Chun families, then I believe it is Chi Sim WC and Hung Fa Yi WC that have a strong connection.

Several of my kung fu brothers and sisters, with extensive experience in many different styles of Wing Chun kung fu, attended a seminar recently given in Ohio by GM Hoffman of the Chi Sim WC lineage. Chi Sim WC shared the same underlying concepts, philosophies (Chan Buddhism, Saam Moi Kui), history (both from wing chun tong), training methods (kiu sau) with the HFY Wing Chun lineage.

The hundreds of members that have come across the country to visit our kwoon can act as eyewitnesses regarding the information of our family tree and the many photos that are up on the wall of the kwoon. We have no obligation to show this information to the outsiders. That is a part of our family tradition.

If you are using this as an excuse to attack my family honor then your MO DUK is questionable. It may appear that I am sensitive about this issue but I'm very tiresome of the same people continuing to spread rumors / false accusations and who have nothing better to do than stick their nose other people's business.

William E.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by William E



Several of my kung fu brothers and sisters, with extensive experience in many different styles of Wing Chun kung fu, attended a seminar recently given in Ohio by GM Hoffman of the Chi Sim WC lineage. Chi Sim WC shared the same underlying concepts, philosophies (Chan Buddhism, Saam Moi Kui), history (both from wing chun tong), training methods (kiu sau) with the HFY Wing Chun lineage....

If you are using this as an excuse to attack my family honor then your MO DUK is questionable. It may appear that I am sensitive about this issue but I'm very tiresome of the same people continuing to spread rumors / false accusations and who have nothing better to do than stick their nose other people's business.

William E.

Bill,

I agree with you about stick their nose on other people's business. Can you please explain how is HFY the oldest or Original WCK which was claim by VTM? Any FActual evidents?
Does Garret Gee support this claim?

IMHO, if HYF support VTM's oldest claim but cannot come up with factual evidents and legacy which can cross check with other chinese martial arts, will it not a continuing to spread rumors?

As for Chan and Saam Mo Kiu link, can anyone provide any factual evidetns.


Hendrik

[John Weiland]

Rene, HFY Champion,

While doing research on HFY history, I found an apparent typo on the VTM website and sent them the following e-mail to bring it to the webmaster's attention:

Just FYI. On the VTM website, the following anomalies exist. Apparently, at least one is a typo. (One says 6th generation and the other says 8th.)

The Truth about Wing Chun's Past
http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/myths.php
Particular thanks must be given to Sifu Garret Gee (6th Generation) who represents Cheung Ng's legacy.

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun's Two Track Approach to Combat Training
http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/me..._two_track.php
A Note About the Authors: Grand Master Garret Gee is the 8th Generation inheritor of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu.

Nice website, but I find it hard to navigate.

As I said, it is a nice website, but where is the research on which the articles and stories are based? Did I miss it?

Regards,

[Chango]

Hello,
If I could share my experiences with the forum. I have just complete the instructor's course for Chi sim. I'm a member of the HFY family. So I have first hand extensive experiences with both systems. I cannot agree with you more William! These systems share deep connections!

I find that both system begin with the understanding of core Chan concepts. I'm very much aware of Phenix's protest as to what he conciders to be Chan. However I checked and cross checked these concepts with knowlegable Chan athorities. None the less I do not wish to debate the origin of these concepts. Both systems share these concepts and both systems point to Chan regardless of anyone's opinions on them.

I find that both have a "first hand expeince approach" both citing that one cannot ignore the realities of combat. be it ground fighting or long range kicking to striking and trapping. Both however also demand that one understands fully one's true identity. Both site the fact that one must manage his or her space looking beyond one's personal wants or needs or style at that point!

I found also that both systems shared reference points and used them in a very simular way! It is clear to me having first hand experiences with numorous families that these systems are very close and connected deeply! From not only a historical and phylosophic stand point but very much in training method!

Once agian I realize that we are all related as WCK brothers. How we are connected then becomes secondary.

Chango (saat geng sau)

[Train]

I thought this thread is about mending bridges???

IMHO, if HYF support VTM's oldest claim but cannot come up with factual evidents and legacy which can cross check with other chinese martial arts, will it not a continuing to spread rumors?Hendrik

Here we go again I thought the people at the VTM had already explained it to you time after time. Why do you always bring up the same old question? Look Hendrik! Every lineage has their own history. No matter what kind of MA your studying, everone has different history. You don't have to believe it ok. It's like your theory on ermei 12 palms and crane style. Ok I read it, it could be true but what kind of real proof do you have to relate it to the WC history??? Who cares!! I guess people have to take your word for it because it's your family's history, right?? Why don't you call the VTM and ask for heaven's sake. write an email to the HFY head quarters or something and get your own facts. Trying to find out the truth from a forum is not exactly professional...... hmmmmm...... maybe you just want to stir something up.......

I don't posts that much here becuase some people do not like other people's opinions. but today I just have to say something.

For the people that doesn't like what the VTM is doing, I have one thing to say, I Don't See Anybody else Doing Something Like That For The WC community!!! Sifu Benny Meng spends a lot of his own time and money on the VTM and i think he has done a fantastic job. It takes years of commitment to do something like that. Unlike the people who does research on the internet and books on WC, Sifu Benny Meng has met the most top WC representitives around the world first hand. Who can say they have done something like that??

Get Over It People

[committment]

Bill,

I agree with you about stick their nose on other people's business. Can you please explain how is HFY the oldest or Original WCK which was claim by VTM? Any FActual evidents?
Does Garret Gee support this claim?

IMHO, if HYF support VTM's oldest claim but cannot come up with factual evidents and legacy which can cross check with other chinese martial arts, will it not a continuing to spread rumors?

As for Chan and Saam Mo Kiu link, can anyone provide any factual evidetns.


Hendrik


Hendrik,

In my opinion, I believe that HFYWC is one of the oldest branch in the wing chun family. I also believe that the Chi Sim wing chun lineage goes back even further than the HFY lineage. We never claimed to be the oldest/original. Through the years of learning the HFYWC from GM Gee, never did I ever hear GM Gee claim the HFY lineage to be the oldest/original. GM Gee always tell us to respect all lineages in the wing chun family. We have our own history, and Hendrik, you have yours. FWIW, I also believe that your wing chun lineage is also one of the oldest branch in the wing chun family.

VTM is an independent organization that researches all branches in the wing chun family. It is an ongoing research Sifu Meng conducts year-in year-out for the last 10 years. Sifu Meng had traveled thousands of miles in making many trips to mainland China to get the information first-hand. And Because of that, I respect his findings.



Josh

[Marcos Hsiang]

William,

I did not mean to attack your family, my questions are sincere.
Pehaps they are more related to TWC than HFY, because the one thing that I do not understand is why Cheung Sifu WCK is so different. This curiosity got bigger after that event with Boztepe, that took place some years ago.
I would like to check HFY but have no money to travel to the US right now.
Thank you anyway.

Hsiang

[reneritchie]

Marcos Hsiang,

St'okay?

Since this is a HFY only thread, and not a general TWC discussion thread, please understand if I respectfully request you transfer the TWC elements of your question over to Victor's outstanding and groundbreaking TWC thread.

As to what possible connection, if any, exists between HFY and TWC, please see my spectacular response earlier in the thread, and if you have any follow ups, please don't hesitate.

A lighthouse on the foggy shore, etc.