Rene - HFY Champion!

[reneritchie]

Joy,

Thank you for being part of the solution!

First, please understand that many of the people currently involved with HFY are new to the art, with only a few years at most of exposure, and many learn from students or grand students. If we were back in HK in 1953, and Leung Sheung had grand students, it would be difficult to expect them to answer detailed, precise questions, even if they did have backgrounds in other arts. Now add in the fact that most people here are English, not Cantonese, and we have to deal with transliteration and translation as well. "Mumbo jumbo", or "jibba jabba" is perhaps forgiveable under those circumstances! We're dealing not only with Gee sifu and his unique culture, but the "middleman" culture in between, which perhaps is causing some of the confusion.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to most of the source material sans "middleman", but I will answer as best as I can.

1. Space and time are relative. These are tools used to determine and achieve optimal results. Proper position in space (measured and aligned, then tested and ingrained through training) reduces the amount of time necessary to act. Similarly, it reduces the amount of options (space) and time the opponent has left to respond with. This is similar to the commonly seen proverb of "maximum results through minimum effort", but as with most things in HFY, there is a very detailed, precise, step-by-step method used to both teach and employ the concept.

2. By training for optimal results, even under the stress of combat, it increases the odds of acceptable results. If you train at 100%, perhaps you can achieve 80% under extreme conditions. If you only train with 80% (precision, etc.) maybe you'll only achieve 50% which could prove unacceptable. Time and Space is just a concept that gives a student a process they can undertake to help fine tune the best reflexes possible, and verify them for themselves, so they don't have to take any one person's opinion as the sum total of all reality. Others probably have other ways of doing the same, but perhaps not in this manner, or described in this way.

3. Chan can be either sudden or gradual, and while some maintain there is a strong connection between Chan and HFY, since this is a WCK forum, it is perhaps better to constrain ourselves to the martial aspects of HFY.

And yes, Joy and I have had some classic arguments which make some of the recent ones here look like love-ins. Glad that's in the past, and that this thread can help build better understandings for all.

[reneritchie]

TjD,

Thanks for being part of the solution!

Again, please remember that a lot of the English being used is the result of a new culture developing a vocabulary for the art, hence the vocabulary will be dependent upon that new culture: the way they think, understand, and express themselves, and it may or may not make it easier or harder for others.

While I can't say for sure how any other person tries to assign modern English to Chinese concepts, my guess would be that as part of teaching the developmental process (not just teaching material, but teaching how to learn, validate, and teach material), the material is put through tests. A "distortion" might then be a problem that arises during the testing due to improper positioning (space) or timing (time). A little off to the right or to the left, a little late or a little early can all result in sub-optimal responses. Using the time and space learning/teaching model, a student can fine tune their responses to develop as optimal a response as possible.

I hope this has been of some help and leaves you with a more positive disposition towards HFY!

[TjD]

so time is just a different way of saying take the shortest path to the target? (closest weapon -> closest target)

while space is a different way of saying occupy the centerline?

so from this, i'm assuming time/space distortions are when you screw up in either case?

[reneritchie]

TjD,

Drawing parallels is always useful to show we're not dealing with alien or obscure concepts, but its important to understand how far the parallel goes. HFY, like most branches, has its own distinct understanding and usage of words like "shortest path" and "centerline" (I believe they actually use a 5-line concept, involving center, mid-claviculars, and shoulders lines).

Another way to look at some of the confusion is depth of detail. For some, its enough to know a bird is a bird. For others, they'll want to distinguish robins from hawks from hummingbirds from condors, etc. And for still others, they'll want to distinquish each type of bird down to its most precise of sub-species, even if it involves using the Latin names.

Neither level of specificity is inherently better or worse, it just depends on what you need, and what you're interested in drilling down to. HFY, because of their methods, likes a high degree of precision in terminology, which does not always conincide with the likes or usages of other branches.

[reneritchie]

Any more questions? As often as people have claimed no one will answer the tough HFY questions, certainly there must be more floating around?

[hunt1]

Ok Rene here goes.

As I understand it HFY traces themselves back to Jee Shim and hence to the Shoalin Temple this gives them their Chan influence and their claim to be a paradigm shift in martial teaching that occured at the Shoalin Temple.

Since Jee Shim did not exist and is only the southern Kung-fu "Johnny Appleseed" how does HFY claim direct from Shoalin through him? How do they claim Chan teachings from a person that did not exist except in creation myths? How are they connected to any paradignm shift that may or may not have occured at the Shoalin temple if the person that brought them their art direct from Shoalin never existed? Did he come through a temperal distortion in Space\Time from the future to teach them in the past?

[yuanfen]

Dear Rene- if we take out the Chan claims and the unbroken link to Southern Shaolin temple and the space time "equations"
and the secret lineage- what do we know about the art---not
about any persons involved-for now.

[reneritchie]

Hi Hunter,

Thank you for being part of the solution!

I think there might be some confusion. Hung Fa Yiu traces themselves back to Yat Chum (Yi Chen), whom their oral transmissions relay was a 22nd generation Shaolin monk, and their connection to the Shaolin Temple of Songshan, Henan.

Jee Shim (Zhi Shan), on the other hand, is one of the famed 5 Elders of Southern Chinese martial lore, and named as the founder of systems such as Hung Ga Kuen and Weng Chun Kuen.

As to whether either existed or not, when dealing with those times, so long ago and far away, its impossible to say with 100% certainty about most all things. All we can do is honorably pass down the information, clearly identify it for what it is, and respect those who choose to respectfully form different opinions as to its relative historical vs. legendary merit.

As to Chan teachings, again, this being a martial arts forum, I believe its better if we constrain ourselves to the martial aspects at this point.

[PaulH]

Okay Rene,

Let talk Martial. I notice in the picture that Terence so artistically rendered to us that HFY seem to have that classic WC pose. How would you answer from the HFY viewpoint this question of Joe Lewis:

Joe Lewis
Predicament: If two students are at close range practicing a drill and each has their lead hand making contact with the other's lead hand wrist, this means both are well within the other's punching range. Assume that while executing a prescribed drill, each student, at all times, keeps their rear hand positioned far below their chin, positioned somewhere in the center of their chest. Now evaluate the tenets of each student's positioning, especially assessing its defensive merits. The lead hand is way out in front, leaving the chin completely unprotected. At the same time, that arm has the elbow positioned way out in front of the unprotected body.

Assess each of the seven gaps in their positioning. You've got the gap between the chin and the breastplate, and the second gap between the chin and the lead shoulder. Usually the chin is out in front of the shoulder, making the shoulder useless as a defensive tool if you're going to attempt to deflect an incoming strike by using a shoulder roll. You've got two more gaps between each of the two fists and the chin, and another two gaps created by the daylight between both elbows, leaving the body unprotected. The seventh gap is created by the great distance horizontally between the two elbows. This is a complete breach of the first rule of combat, which is always attack from a position of strength to a position of weakness.

How could any rational person believe that they could stand that close to a good puncher with those seven openings, and believe that they're not going to get hit. Using this type of positioning, hands down, shoulders squared, and body unprotected, (often used in sticky-hand drills), would allow a good puncher to eat you alive.

Regards,

[FIRE HAWK]

Maybe Yat Chum and Jee Shim are the same person with more than one name , and if i remember Pan Nam calls his Yat Chum Um jee a women nun maybe that is Ng Mui with another name ?

[planetwc]

Questions:

1. If Wing Chun is from Shaolin where are the specific Shaolin movements?

2. Which portions of the Wing Chun forms have Shaolin influenced "martial DNA" (posture, movements)?

3. Is Hung Fa Yi, Wing Chun or Weng Chun?

4. Are Wing Chun and Weng Chun the same system or two distinct arts which are not related?

[planetwc]

What is the unbroken lineage of Hung Fa Yi in the last 100-200 years?

At present we have Garrett Gee and his teacher.

Who was the si-gung of Gee?

How is Hung Fa Yi able to go back to their orginator of their Wing Chun, yet be unable to provide the last 5 generations of teachers and si-hings?

Is Gee Sifu's teacher known as a Wing Chun instructor or even as a martial art teacher in the province in China where he resides?

Who are the other students of Gee Sifu's teacher?

[planetwc]

If all the other branches of Wing Chun have a similar set of core principles, movements and platforms, and Hung Fa Yi's is completely different than WHY should Hung Fa Yi be considered Wing Chun?

What concrete proof does Hung Fa Yi have to being a Wing Chun system?

What concrete proof does Hung Fa Yi have to being the oldest form of Wing Chun?

[planetwc]

If Hung Fa Yi is the paradigm shift of Shaolin, such that it does not resemble Shaolin arts, how did that shift occur?

If all other variations of Wing Chun are descended from Hung Fa Yi, why are they not alike (in terms of similarities to Hung Fa Yi) or did another paradigm shift occur from Hung Fa Yi to ALL other Wing Chun systems? How did that happen?

Why would it be that there is commonality among all other Wing Chun systems BUT Hung Fa Yi? Would that not indicate that Hung Fa Yi is another system of Kung Fu unrelated to Wing Chun Kuen?

If ALL other Wing Chun systems had such a disconnect from what the Hung Fa Yi system is, and Hung Fa Yi is supposed to be the one true original source art, how did Hung Fa Yi stay the same unchanged over generations when there is no defined lineage of transmission over the last 200 years?

How do the current Hung Fa Yi generation know that what they are doing is EXACTLY the same as it was at the art's founding?

What proof is there of this lack of change and evolution?

If there was evolution, then which specific Hung Fa Yi teacher made such changes, and WHY?

[planetwc]

Why is it that on the VTM Seminar tape, Benny Meng performs the Hung Fa Yi form which is almost exactly the same as the TWC form performed by Marty Goldberg?

Doesn't that seem to show a connection between the two systems?