Rene - HFY Champion!

[tparkerkfo]

Hi PlanetWC,

hold it. Your actually asking questions. You can't. You will upset the whole space/time continumm and be banned. You can only read what they choose to put out and not question it, unless you want the mark of a HFY basher/hater branded upon you. There is no room for logical critical thinking. Just drink, and don't ask.

I learned from my mistake. As a HFY supporter again, I just accept! Not question.

Tom

[reneritchie]

Dearest Joy,

Thank you for your interest. If we stick to the relevant areas of WCK discussion, there is still much that can be addressed, including areas of body structure, weighting, strategy, etc.

Warmest always,

[reneritchie]

Paul H.,

Since I do not practice HFY (it is not a requirement for a supporter, and hopefully not for a champion) and I can only look at the pictures and make suppositions. However, I would first like to stress that any picture is only a snapshot in time, and the moment before and the moment after are unknown to us. I would second like to stress that no single part or aspect of a system will make sense when taken out of context - it needs to be viewed within the whole.

As four limbed vertibrates, two of which limbs are typically used to remain standing in non-ground-based arts, there will always be limits in the area that can be shielded pre-engagement. Thus, each method needs to make choices about how limbs are aligned, giving up some "holes" in order to create some "obstacles". Everything will have a risk/reward ratio. What methods then do, within their whole approach, is to maximize the rewards and minimize the risks through overall strategy and the support of other elements.

In HFY, using their process of testing alignment through various simulations, based on what they consider to be of paramount importance, they have come up with the posture Gee sifu displays. Perhaps if one hand was more bent, it would protect one area more, but leave another area less well protected. These are simply the ideals from their perspective, and to compensate for the holes that are opened in order to achieve it, there is footwork, hand changes, and other elements, and knowing the holes allows for some predictability in how a skilled opponent might try to exploit them, giving a foundation from which to train these supports.

I hope this reply has increased your appreciation for the HFY art.

[reneritchie]

Firehawk,

While anything is possible when dealing with events so long ago and far away, it unfortunately means *anything* is possible and the slope of supposition is slippery indeed.

As to Pan Nam, yes he renders the name Yat Chum Um Jee, which depending on the details of the characters, can mean Yat Chum founder of Convent, or Yat Chum, Hermit. I do not know if one had to be female to found a convent in Hunan province in the 18th century, but others have assumed that.

[reneritchie]

David,

Thank you for being part of the solution!

1 & 2. I do not know of any specific Shaolin movements. Since we are all mostly human with similar configurations, and all involved in a similar endeavor (fighting) I'm sure there may be some overlap whether there is a direct Shaolin connection or not. Until such time as a detailed analysis of HFY, side by side with an ancestral Shaolin Fist like Lohanquan, its impossible to say either way. However, just like Yip Man's story, tracing WCK back to Shaolin through Ng Mui, the oral transmission from Gee sifu claims Shaolin roots. Aside from that, all we have are personal opinions, and I can respect those, agree or politely disagree.

3. Gee sifu uses the character for Wing (chant, sing), not Weng (perpetual, everlasting).

4. They are just names and over the generations, sometimes more oral and less written transmissions have led to different people using different characters even within the same system (eg. sihingdai Yip Man and Chan Yiu-Min using Wing and Weng respectively). Secondly, Weng is used by a wide range of arts, some probably further removed from what most consider WCK than others. If you're referring to Weng Chun Kuen from Fung Siu-Ching, it could perhaps be a different branch evolved from on of the ancestral components of Wing Chun Kuen (the one that gave us the pole, dummy, and some San Sik). As it has been 150 years on the tree, each branch will of course have grown in some ways divergent.

5. The unbroken lineage of HFY as given to us for Complete Wing Chun was Yat Chum -> Cheung Ng -> Hung Gam Biu -> Cheung Gung -> Wong Ting -> Wong Ming. Benny Meng has indicated Gee sifu's sihing has supplied additional generations between Cheung Ng and Hung Gam Biu.

6. Gee sifu's sigung was Wong Ting, his sifu's father.

7. Gee sifu has provided the lineage, but I don't know of any sihing or side-branches provided. If this information is available, it may be kept private.

8. Gee sifu told me his sifu was friendly with Mai Gei Wong, who was well known in the area, but I have not been able to verify this with the Mai Gei Wong people, its possible that the younger generation didn't know him. I have not been able to find anyone in the restaurant or medical circles familiar with him as well, which might also be a generational thing. While it would be sensible to think people in the WCK circle all knew each other, the Cultural Revolution was a very hard time and many stayed very quiet. If you didn't have a reputation for fighting and didn't teach large numbers of students, you might remain relatively unknown.

9. I do not know of any other students of Wong Ming, though Gee sifu said there were 3 other disciples, and Benny Meng has said he is in contact with one other student.

10. HFY should be considered WCK because they use the WCK name. Southern Mantis is different in kind from Northern Mantis, yet they both use the name Mantis. Chen Taiji and other systems have Long Boxing without a direct connection to what is commonly considered Changquan. Likewise, there are several systems that encorporate Weng or Weng Chun into their name, or Hung into their name. Names are just names. While HFY may be different (or similar, depending on how you choose to phrase or read it) from Foshan and Panyu WCK, so is Pao Fa Lien which also uses WCK.

11. When dealing with murky matters like Chinese martial lineages, where most systems cannot be accurately traced back beyond the 20th century, its probably impossible to offer concrete proof of anything. All we have are the systems themselves. HFY seems to use terms like Tan, Fook, Bong, to have sets like Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee, to have a Muk Yan Jong, pole, and double knives. Perhaps the interpretation is different, but every branch has more or less distinct features (Koo Lo with no sets, Pao Fa Lien with very different mechanics and sets, etc.)

12. Again, while several branches from the Red Junk have common features, not all systems calling themselves WCK share the closeness of those commonalities (again, PFL being a prime example). It's also possible that different branches of WCK evolved differently, or drew on different elements of its initial composition, resulting in different empasises that grew more different over time. Foshan and Panyu, Pao Fa Lien, HFY and TWC, and Weng Chun Kuen could all be variants of the same ancestral material, developed distinctly over time.

13. In Chinese culture, its never polite to claim there are changes. Most branches of most arts over time have claimed they are without changes, or true to their founder. This is respect and face. Whether they are or not is impossible to tell, since we lack "fossil" evidence. If we understand the culture, its not so much a matter of absolutes as it is of tradition.

14. Absent video from 200 years ago, of course its impossible to tell, but given the same tradition, trust is placed in Gee sifu, unless he states otherwise, to teach what was taught to him as best he can, and benefit of the doubt is given that previous generations did likewise. It might sound romantic, but it is part of the culture, like ancestor worship and traditional rituals.

15 & 16. Absent proof, which is impossible unless a book is unearthed in misty China, it becomes a matter of faith, like childen not assuming they're adopted, or going to bed assuming the sun will rise. Unless Gee sifu tells of a specific change, its assumed no concious changes were made, and if romanticized, again its part f the culture and tradition, same as believing Jee Shim taught the Tiger Crane Fist or Washington chopped down the cherry tree.

17. Having seen that live, and having seen 2 other similar back-to-back demonstrations, I would agree that there appears to be similarities between HFY and TWC which do not exist between either system and the Foshan/Panyu branches. However, until something concrete is discovered, what connection, if any, remains speculation ranging from the absurd (coincidence), to the possible (shared ancestry at some point), to the rediculous (secret colusion). These similarities, however, if anything, perhaps suggest deeper roots to either art than many others previously considered. Still, its important to remember that while similarities do exist, that doesn' mean the systems are identical, and even the Foshan/Panyu systems are as different in some ways as they are similar in others.

I hope this reply has helped share some of the unique character of the HFY system with you.

[reneritchie]

Tom,

I appreciate that you are helping support HFY but I'm afraid others may mistake your tone as being something other than serious. Perhaps you could stick with the Q&A format to avoid any confusion?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Tom,

I appreciate that you are helping support HFY but I'm afraid others may mistake your tone as being something other than serious. Perhaps you could stick with the Q&A format to avoid any confusion?

I have another coupla' questions, what HFY franchises are available and what would I receive for my investment dollars?

Are Hung Fa Yi and HFY trademarked?

Why did Garrett Gee paint over the words "Wing Chun" from his school's window in S.F.? Is this a concession that it isn't Wing Chun?

Is this the right thread to ask these types of questions?

Are we merely feeding the HFY egos?

Does anyone really care?

[Phenix]

Weng Chun. Wing Chun......


ok, Thus I have heard.

In the tale of martial art from Southern China......There is a Weng Chun Kuen which is different to White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian. That Weng Chun Kuen is told to be Hu Hui-Chien (madarin, a school brother of Hung Xi kuan and Fang Si Yuek) art.

Hu Hui -Chien trained in Weng Chun Hall of Shao Lin and his sifu is Jee Shim.

That is the tale.

So, which Weng Chun is Weng Chun? That is up to you all to figure up. I just tell you what I have heard.

As for how VTM link this Wing Chun to that Weng Chun.....
Well, If it is the art of Hu Hui-Chien of Weng Chun Hall.
How is all this link up to Yat Chan.....? I left that to VTM researchers and Chi Sim researchers.

[yuanfen]

Rene- If The GM was young enough to attend High School in SF
and his father was a well known taichi and Chu family instructor-
and given his relatively young age
how could SF HFY if it is wing chun have roots in Canton?

[yuanfen]

Rene- If The GM was young enough to attend High School in SF
and his father was a well known taichi and Chu family instructor-
and given his relatively young age
how could SF HFY if it is wing chun have roots in Canton?

[Rolling_Hand]

Originally posted by Yuanfen

Rene- If The GM was young enough to attend High School in SF
and his father was a well known taichi and Chu family instructor-
and given his relatively young age
how could SF HFY if it is wing chun have roots in Canton?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Someone had explained that many times before.

The GM went to college in USA, not high school.

[anerlich]

The sea appears calm so far, but I sense a tsunami of name-calling, accusation and counter accusation, and the rehashing of old arguments, building and ready to break in the near future ...

[captain]

ya'll "discuss" too much.

[reneritchie]

Grendel,

Thank you for being part of the solution!

1. I do not know if HFY franchises are available, nor what any investments in such an enterprise would bring. Before taking on such a large comittment, however, like any good businessman, you should do your due dillegence and perhaps try a sample class with Gee sifu first.

2. A quick search of www.uspto.gov revealed no trademarks registered in the USA for Hung Fa Yi or HFY

3. Unfortunately, being on the other side of the continent,I do not have any information on the signage outside the HFY school, however a quick look at hungfayi.com shows the words Wing Chun still unblemished.

4. This is the perfect thread!

5. Quite the contrary, we are attempting to divest of ego so as to achieve true and lasting results.

6. If you train SNT in the forest, and there's no one around to fight, are you still martial?

7. Gee sifu is Cantonese, and can teach his art in Cantonese (please don't allow the intervening pseudoculture to confuse you on that score). Beyond that, it is once again impossible to prove with absolute certainty, so lacking compelling evidence to the contrary, it becomes a matter of personal belief.

8. Gee sifu is 47 years old. According to Gee sifu, HFY was revealed to him as a child in the park in Guangzhou while he was training his family's system, Fujiquan from Fu Zhensong. He relates that he trained a few years around the age of 14, then more intensely for a few more years when he informed his sifu he would be moving to the US. If you have any firm dates on his alleged attendance at a US highschool, perhaps we can do the math and work out a more exact timeframe.

9. I have personally heard him say HFY the most, but this might just be more convenient than the longer HFYWCK. At this time, I lack better information on that subject.

10. Thank you for distinguishing between me, the HFY champion, who will make a real and sincere effort to share and build bridges, and the boosters who may or may not have similar motives. Personally, I believe the boosters, passionate and dedicate individuals though they are, lack diplomatic skills and allow their emotions to get the better of them. Perhaps this is understandable, and they can leave the thread for champions like myself who can calmly, clearly, and rationally, handle the public's thirst for information.

I hope this has given you a new hope for HFY understanding.

Respectfully,

[reneritchie]

Hendrik,

Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

I am familiar with the accounts of Hu Hui-Chien, sidai of Hung Hey-Goon, who is reported to have brought Weng Chun Kuen to Guangdong province from Fujian.

However, as this is a HFY thread, if anyone wishes to discuss the unique and glorious art of WeCK, I encourage them to start their own thread, so this one may stay focused and on topic.

Respectfully with respect,