Rene - HFY Champion!

[reneritchie]

Joy,

Thank you for your continued good graces!

Since I do not have dates for Gee sifu's alleged attendence of a San Francisco high school, I cannot give an authoritative answer to how, if at all, it constrained his timeframe for learning HFY. Gee sifu is currently 47 years old, and according to him, was learning HFY at around the age of 14 in China.

Respectfully,

[reneritchie]

Rolling_Hand,

While I still have you on ignore and thus cannot read what, if any contribution you have made to my thread, due to past confusions your involvement had caused in relation to the HFY art, I respectfully request you leave this thread to me, the HFY champion, so that I might rebuild burned bridges and restore lost good faith.

Respectfully, etc.

[reneritchie]

Andrew,

Due to my new capactity as the HFY champion, perhaps not surprisingly, I was blessed last night to spend a short time on the phone with Gee sifu. As per usual, he was polite, engaging, and showed humility and diplomatic skill unmatched.

Gee sifu made it very clear that he does not mind questions *at all*, and that he understands there will be questions and even criticism of his art and of himself personally since both are not widely known to the public, and skepticism is natural. Being somewhat traditional, Gee sifu prefers to get to know people before sharing with them, as he believes some of his information, especially concerning his martial family, is sensitive and involves their rights to privacy, and he understands that might also cause some frustration on all sides.

If any personal attacks are directed towards anyone asking questions of any kind about HFY, please understand it does not reflect Gee sifu's nature or wishes, and in fact, is directly counter to them. But more on all that later,

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate, and apologies to your team mate Luke for the stylistic pinching.

Respectfully,

[reneritchie]

Train, William, Chango,

With greatest and utmost respect, please refrain from posting on this thread (and perhaps all threads here) and allow me, the HFY champion, to handle the pesky, often annoying little task of inter-communication.

While I pale to insignificance before your technical knowlege of HFY, I possess the diplomatic skills, as well as the quick wit and irresistable charm, to truly make a difference, if I'm allowed to.

There is much old baggage. Set it down for a while, grab a decaf, and let me build back the bridges, garner the good faith, and demonstrate a better, brighter strategy for y'all to adopt.

Respectfully, etc.

Your champion,

[reneritchie]

Captain,

While your comments inject some perhaps well needed humor and irony, perhaps it would be best to keep this thread appropriately serious.

If you have any HFY questions, please don't hesitate.

Respectfully, cheerio, pip pip, etc.

[captain]

rene:"away put your weapon,i mean you no harm"
-yoda-

i do have a question though.i saw gee doing a very high
bong sau,the sort that would stop a right hook.so a bong
can also be used for a jab AND a hook.?

Russ.

[anerlich]

You know?? Sifu Chan's Student punching your sifu, knocking him back??

I heard about that too, as did everyone on the WCML about 7 years ago.

The general consensus was that it was a rather one-sided and probably embellished view of a discussion of punching mechanics, started rather rudely by the student mentioned.

Your efforts to take the moral high ground are rather undermined by your apparent desire to fight fire with fire.

[canglong]

We have this...

Isn't this a HFY thread? What does Robert Chu have to do with HFY? I don't what his "relationship" is with his these people you refer to; nor do I care. But, thank you for your concern. TN Terence

"Thanks for the stories about Robert Chu. I sincerely hope that your skill and understanding in WCK has grown in the 20+ years since you all happened to attend a TWC seminar and that folks that knew you then and met you again today would be impressed with your progress. Perhaps looking at it that way might give you some perspective -- that none of us are the same as we were 20 years ago, including Robert Chu. We've all grown." Terence

then we have this...

Alright, I'm going to come clean too -- I'm really the head of HFY. See the attached photo. Terence

Terence, so your message is don't bad mouth my sifu, while I bad mouth yours? Very tasteless and clearly Mm Yan Chi Dai !

[Savi]

Quite an interesting thread...

Is Rene representing the HFY family with true sincerity ? If so, he should also challenge those who give mockery to the family whom he is speaking for. If Rene's actions are indeed sincere, keep it up!

[Da_Moose]

I am new to this forum, so I will be brief and just add my thoughts to what I have read thus far. I will also say that I am a student of HFY, so I may seem a little biased or emotional about what I write, but that is how it would sound anyway as many of the posts are designed to make any response to them sound inrrational or emotional, not logical or thoughtful.

Some of you claim to be champions/supporters of HFY, but how can this be so without any of you having studied it directly? I am just wondering. Some have honestly stated that they haven't studied the art, but they are supporters/champions of it. That just doesn't make any sense. I do believe you are champions/supporters of open mindedness and rationality, as well as logic and tolerance.

I do appreciate those of you who are trying to lead rational, mature discussions. Thank you, it keeps the reading fun and interesting. We do not need those who have yet to graduate from Kindergarten and can't yet lead/participate in a factual, rational discussion. Those of you making claims that border on insult to our lineage's ancestors and Sifu should cool it. These 'questions' or observations you have made regarding our heritage should be stopped if you yourself do not know the facts. Don't make the claim unless you can support it.

We HFY students do appreciate the attempts to keep this thread non-childlike and purely intellectual. Please keep up the good work! And please, if you haven't studied any HFY, don't try to answer the questions that pop up. We are perfectly capable of diplomacy. Simply ask one of us. We will answer to the best of our ability as we are still new to this system.

[PaulH]

Okay Rene,

Since you are the undisputed champion of the HFY so far, I would like to ask these common discussion questions among the WC brothers. What drills or training devices do the HFY use to improve their fighting skills? How do they solve the problem of losing (i.e., position or structure, being overpowered by incoming force, being grabbed by someone stronger, getting choked in a head lock, getting kicked, being fingered jabbed, elbowed, head butted and tackled). In particular how do they train for these possibilities or do they cover these issues at all in their training curriculum? How do they fit in the HFY space and time context?

Regards,

[yylee]

Hi Rene

Originally posted by reneritchie
.....revealed to him as a child in the park in Guangzhou while he was training his family's system, Fujiquan from Fu Zhensong....

Fu ZhenSong's BaGua was really famous in China. A WCK friend of mine happens to be training the Fu's KungFu these days, his BaGua Chuen Palm kind of reminds me of the high Tan Sau found in some WCK lineages.

The Fu's also has their own family Fu Gar TaiChi Kuen.

I have also heard the Fu's family members are still practicing/teaching in the park in Guangzhou today.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Da Moose,

You ask some very serious and thoughtful questions. I am glad all logical and critical thinking on this list hasn't been lost. I am also kind of excited to see two or three new HFY members to the list. It seems as if a good number are on the list now and are participating. Hopefully good will come of it. Rene has decided to help build the bridges and help with the PR and communication problems we have had in the past. I think he has done a fine and admirable job. No doubt there will be skeptics and it will be hard to convince some, Savi had questions, but I think his posts speak for themselves.

How indeed can people be supporters and champions of HFY if they never studied the art? That is touchy and hopefully Rene will lend his hand here. but I notice that HFY has always relied on champions that did not study the art. I was one once before the dark days and my fall from grace. Both Rolling Hand and Geezer have been supporters and neither studied the art, as far as we can tell. I am still trying to learn about more of our members so I am not sure if there are more on this list in particular.

Supporting and championing often do not require indepth knowledge, just a cursory overview. I think Rene has enough. We champion the words of Thomas Jefferson and the ideals of John Locke, but how many of us have studied either of them in any real detail? How many of you study the last president you voted for in any real detail. Support indeed can come from not having a direct involvement.

I am also glad to hear about Gee sifu's chat with Sigung Gee. It is nice to know that atleast he accepts the questions. Of course respect should be paid as it would be to any elder and shows good mo duk. He seemed very logical and showed critical thinking every time I met him. I hope that attitude spreads.

I am sure I am on the HFY dirty list because I asked some hard questions. My intent is percevied as bad, but it is not. I am trying to follow Rene's example, though it is difficult. But he has already answered several of my questions, and done so without attacking me, my lineage, or my financial situation. LOL. Heck, if this keeps up, I just may buy everyone a round of drinks!

Now for my question to Rene,

Can you explain a couple concepts to make sure I am on the right page and can understand further more difficult discussions regarding HFY.

1) Time and Space in a nutshell
2) Kiu Sau
3) Sam Moor Kiu
4) I forgot this one, but add anything that would fit.

Thank you Mr Masked Man!

[JohnL]

Rene;

Thanks for the new approach to HFY.

I am a member of HFY and have found the training to be real, spontaneous, and complete. The bases for my feelings is that the use of the formula, when applied to my anatomical structure, provides me with the proper spacial configeration to reduce time in my movements. The reduction of space and time converts to a reduction of energy expended. I feel that these concepts are the cutting edge of technical martial arts and provide the best alignment for both attack and defense.

Again, thanks for the fresh start and I look forward to gaining better insights from reading your thread.


John Lambert

[taltos]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
Now for my question to Rene,

Can you explain a couple concepts to make sure I am on the right page and can understand further more difficult discussions regarding HFY.

1) Time and Space in a nutshell
2) Kiu Sau
3) Sam Moor Kiu
4) I forgot this one, but add anything that would fit.

I'm not sure if I'm invited to this party, but since I havn't had any conflicts with anyone and haven't been accused of being in "the mob," I'd like to take a stab at explaining facets of the system I currently train.

Some of this information (most of the Time/Space and Saam Mouh Kiuh) is paraphrased from the following article:

http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/lo.../jeung_ngh.php

[To give credit where credit is due.]

1. Time and Space in a Nutshell
The Time and Space Concept is used by HFYWCK to guarantee simultaneous offense and defense with pinpoint accuracy and optimum efficiency. It involves the training of martial self-awareness according to the HFY Wing Chun Formula: 1 CENTERLINE (the origin), 2 LINES of defense (depth), 3 REFERENCE POINTS (height), and the 5 LINE CONCEPT (width). Using these specific concepts and reference points (which are based on the practicioners own body), allows the practicioner to develop implicit awareness of the distances between each of their own body parts. In HFYWCK, you are taught that before any attempt can be made to precisely control an opponent's mass in motion while denying them the time and space required to react, one must first have control over his own structure throughout its movement in space and time. In HFYWCK one starts by aligning one's own body parts to provide an optimum mix of balance, strength and ease of use in relation to three-dimensional space. This is drilled extensively (until it is expressed consistently and automatically and calibration occurs instinctively). The practicioner then develops the awareness of an opponent's structures and flaws in relation to the practicioner's own space. Finally, Time is added to the equation and movement of one's parts within and through space is trained.

2. Kiuh Sau
Kiuh Sau is a training tool. It can also be used in application. When people who train Kiuh Sau speak of it, they can be speaking of it in terms of an exercise, or as a conceptual framework of combat, or as a learning tool for any number of purposes. Here is one way of looking at it.

Kiuh Sau can be a training tool that allows the practicioner to develop several abilities. One is the ability to set up one's structure when caught unaware without merely giving the opponent a second chance to hit by deflecting the attack without setting up properly (re: calibrating one's structure through use of the HFY Wing Chun Formula). This could be referred to as "getting a sense of reality," or "setting up your identity." Kiuh Sau can also give you precious time in combat by developing in the practicioner the ability to "sweep" entire gates of space when threatened without putting oneself in harm's way. This is done by developing the sensitivity needed to read the opponent at the bridge (in Kiuh Sau the forearm). This could be called "getting to know your opponent."

Chi Sau is not Kiuh Sau because when Kiuh Sau is done correctly, you are not in a position for the opponent to have a realistic time ans space to hit you. If your opponent is able to best your Kiuh Sau, you would then proceed to Chi Sau, which has it's own training tools and operational range/methods.

3. Sam Moor Kiu
Also called Saam Mouh Kiuh, this is a philosophical framework that describes three basic levels of awarenessn (from Floating/Wandering to Separate/Awareness to Eternal/Focus). These levels of awareness can apply to more than just hand-to-hand combat, but I will use the example of hand-to-hand combat as an illustrative tool, and put the SMK concept as it applies to mind and spirit aside for now.

HFYWCK practitioners are trained to recognize three different time frames/situations in relation to combat. The first is called Fauh Kiu (Floating Bridge). It represents the time during which one has no control of either time or space. According to HFYWCK, during this timeframe no part of the HFY Wing Chun formula is expressed in alignment or structure.

The second time frame is called Saan Kiuh (Separate Bridge). This timeframe addresses the conditions and results of having time, but not space, or having space, but not time. According to HFYWCK, any strikes landed during this timeframe are considered nothing more than "lucky strikes" because the practitioner could not guarantee the outcome.

The third time frame is called the Weng Kiuh (Everlasting Bridge) time frame. It represents complete control of time and space, allowing simultaneous offense and defense.

HFYWCK practicioners are trained to express Weng Kiuh, but are also trained to recognize when they are in one of the other timeframes in order to avoid illusions in combat and directly address the reality at hand.



I hope that helps, and was direct enough. It certainly does not cover the depth and breadth of the information, but hopefully is enough of a "quick and dirty" answer.

-Levi