TCM, MD, L.A.C Sandal!

[Former castleva]

"First off, I don't doubt his sinus infection would've gone away w/o antibiotics.

Accelerated healing capabilities? I hadn't thought of it that way, but that's a fair representation. More generally, I was pointing out that sometimes people get better in unexplained dramatic ways. Likewise, I had hoped to point out that some level of reproducibility is especially important."

Sometimes when an "integrated" approach is used,namely with proper medication or whatever goes and alternative medicine.
When the patient recovers as should,alternative medicine may collect points even when recovery would have happened just as well without it.


"One last thing- are you suggesting that the 17 year old in my story had accelerated healing capabilities? How can this be "spontaneous remission"? Using the same logic, can it be fair to say that perhaps his sinus infection would have (possibly) resolved itself anyway, even if he hadn't taken the antibiotics?"

Related tactics can be effective in fooling people.
A quack can promote unscientific medicine by providing one with a promising anecdote,a miraculous recovery.
This can be especially effective if the patient already has negative experiences of medicine or is somehow misinformed.

[Jack Squat]

TCM is real, and it's here....

Lets just hope the AMA doesn't get involved and take over or your acupuncture tx will cost $450!!!

Fragbot,
I agree that too many of the acupuncture students are starry-eyed crystal toting flakes, but the "good" news is that statistics show that within 1 year of graduation, 50% will not be doing TCM (those type of people have no true business skills). Within five years, the % of practicing AP's is even less (much less, but I forgot the exact #). The ones that are left standing are usually decent (survival of the fittest?).


All skeptics,
I know you skeptics are hard to convince, but what does your average MD think regarding TCM? The Journal of Public Health (Dec 2002 issue) published a poll in which 502 Western trained doctors were questioned. Interesting results.....

62% believed in the efficacy of acupuncture (didn't go into details)
51.6% believed in efficacy of Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine
58.3% "agreed" or "strongly agreed" that some CAM therapies need to be accepted by Western Medicine.

Does it mean that acupuncture is perfect or that it works everytime? Of course not (what does), but these MD's are people who have dedicated their lives to medicine, not someone sitting at a desk 9-5 working at "where ever" playing armchair quarterback. I totally understand the healthy skeptism, but don't understand dogmatic anti-TCM ideologies. If you would like, I can provide some pretty scary statistics regarding Western medicine. Does that mean I won't use Western medicine? Heck no! If I am in an auto accident (or shot, or any other acute trauma), please take me to the ER!

Jack

[cha kuen]

Jack,


Good post. That should be the end of this thread. Anymore posting by anyone is pointless because it's obviously going to go nowhere.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Jack Squat
[B]TCM is real, and it's here....

All skeptics,
I know you skeptics are hard to convince, but what does your average MD think regarding TCM? The Journal of Public Health (Dec 2002 issue) published a poll in which 502 Western trained doctors were questioned. Interesting results.....

62% believed in the efficacy of acupuncture (didn't go into details)
51.6% believed in efficacy of Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine
58.3% "agreed" or "strongly agreed" that some CAM therapies need to be accepted by Western Medicine.

Who on this thread are you talking to?

Assuming you're responding to me (at least partially), I'm starting to think you barely read my posts.

In principle, I agree with the first statement. That being said, I believe it has fairly limited applicability. The same is true (but less so) for #2.

#3 is so general as to be unhelpful. Only an ideologue would make such a dramatic claim as "TCM does(n't) work." To make such a blanket statement throws the baby out with the bathwater.

I totally understand the healthy skeptism, but don't understand dogmatic anti-TCM ideologies. If you would like, I can provide some pretty scary statistics regarding Western medicine.

Strawman, much.

"dogmatic anti-TCM ideologies"

Quite frankly, I've no ideology one way or the other. Finding information beyond "it worked for Uncle Ted" is **** near impossible about many parts of alternative medicine. Since I understand how belief influences healing (positively or negatively), I dislike anecdotal evidence. Probabilities are much more helpful.

In a nutshell, here's my take on TCM:

1) acupuncture works generally well for chronic pain
2) certain herbal concoctions work well, but the contraindications are poorly-understood. That being said, I suspect a larger number of concoctions work poorly if at all. I'd hope our understanding of which mixtures belong in which pool improves over time.

NOW: do those same herbal concoctions work "better" than prescribed meds for the same conditions? That's another question worth asking. Fundamentally, it's the same question the FDA asks when debating whether to approve a new prescription drug.

As an off-topic aside, I think many people are too trusting when they see the words herbal and safe together, but this is mainly a consumer issue.

3) like most professions, I suspect certain TCM doctors are dramatically more competent than others. However, unlike dealing with mainstream doctors, it's difficult to determine a base-level of competency.

The relatively unstructured and unregulated nature of the business (apparently changing in some states) makes this more difficult to understand.

As an aside, I've attempted to respond in detail to points you raise. OTOH, when reading your posts, I feel more that I'm a parishioner in a pew.

[Leimeng]

~ Roughly 50% of all MD's, Nurses, Osteopaths, & Accupunturist in the US graduated in the bottom half of their class.
~ Gee, reading this debate is fun!
~ Some people will believe anything no matter what the facts are! Flat earth? Yes! Roswell/UFO's Yes! The government is involved in a vast conspiracy! Don't tell anyone, cause they might be listening, but I agree! You can trust MD's and pharmaceutical companies. Yeah, they are 'scientific' and only want to 'help' poor suffering people! Brittany and LLCoolJ actually have enduring well trained musical talent and people listen to them irregardless of their sex appeal! The latest teenie bop magazine says so! If my crystals vibrate correctly, that means I am being protected from some sickness that you are carrying! Yeah, that is what that yoga teacher told me, she is so nice and gentle!
~ If you want to find 'facts' supporting anything, you probably can. The deal is that what works, works! All else is hearsay.
~ You can draw any conclusions that you want to from all that.

D)



Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

[Former castleva]

You might have had a point somewhere,not entirely sure.


"Roughly 50% of all MD's, Nurses, Osteopaths, & Accupunturist in the US graduated in the bottom half of their class. "

This is especially funny.Not that there is not any data,but that you pick supposed half of the class,and point out that half of students graduated "in the bottom half" as opposed to other half who did not.Really,is there much choise then?

But I think you posted to have some fun and that´s fine.

[BetaSao]

This thread has been very amusing indeed. Well, here are my two cents, for what it is worth. To those of you who believe in TCM (myself included), kudos to your openess in thought and I am sure you are already benefitting from the immense health improvements that TCM may already have given you. To those of you who remain skeptics (especially Former), your lack of faith (or should I say, non-existent) in TCM is respected and noted. It is a bit of a pity because there may be areas in your life that you might be able to benefit from with TCM but you will not get the chance to unless you are willing to try it. Perhaps, some day, there may come an instance in which the only recourse you may have is provided by TCM and from this experience, you may have a different mindset about TCM. Until then, your doubts are respected and I hope that you will never come across the day when you will have to depend on TCM.

Oh, yes, and by the way, I AM a TCM practitioner, and I graduated at the TOP of my high school, and NOT at the bottom of my class. In addition, I have two undergraduate degrees and two graduate degrees from top American universities in the East Coast, along with my qualification in TCM. There definitely are some people who did not do that well in their high schools, but this is not limited to TCM.... it exists in all fields, including Engineering, Computer Science, etc.

[Former castleva]

Well,thanks for joining and handing out your achievements.

Faith is a strong,but a good word.

Faith,is our ignorance.
Faith,requires and sometimes cannot stand further examination.
What we know is science,faith reflects our ignorance.

[BetaSao]

Faith.... is also our life and what we live by.

Without faith, there is no hope. And where there is no hope, then what is there?

I would rather live with faith and hope, than without. It is when one loses faith that one immerses in depression and oftentimes, life itself becomes pointless.

It may be valid that faith may be ignorance, but faith is also where strides are made. You, Former, are obviously an 18-yr old science enthusiast. Well, I am a big science enthusiast myself ! And I am ever thankful on a daily basis for those scientists who had faith in what they did, persisted and relied on their faith, and eventually with their hard work came up with all the many wonderful modern marvels that you and I enjoy today (I assume you do live in this modern world with electricity, etc.; if not, then ignore my previous statment and maybe you should try out this modern world to see all the wonderous things that hope through faith has brought us) Without them, we would not be on this forum with people from all around the world, we would have no electricity, there would be no airplanes, and so on, and so on.

And last but not least, faith itself does not imply ignorance. It is the people who, despite faith, choose to look the other way or to refute reality, and it is through these people from where ignorance exists, not through faith itself.

[BetaSao]

Oh, yeh, and another important point.... faith is what created science.... a person's faith in his/her own belief and the willingness of that person to research and expound on that belief.

[Former castleva]

Perhaps I should have made myself more clear.

When I said "faith",I meant faith in something which requires faith in order to be accepted,widely.
In this context,terms like "faith medicine" are sometimes used.

Besides this,like you said,I have faith too in certain sense,but since I have a reasonable amount of faith that I´ve made myself clear (Have I?) I won´t be clinging to words.

[BetaSao]

Former:

Glad you pointed that out. Like you said, it is important to have "faith in order to be accepted", and this is very true. You definitely have faith, and so do all of us. In this thread, we are talking about the faith in TCM.

For Former, it is the faith in the lack of validity in TCM, regardless of the number of articles, quotes, etc. that other people have tried to point to in this thread. That faith is perfectly OK, and Former has the right to have a lack of faith in TCM... not everyone believes in TCM. What that implies for people like Former, until another faith is born - "the faith that TCM does work", then TCM would not present an avenue of potential health benefit to them. They will need to rely on the medicines / sources that they have faith in.

For others who have faith in the value of TCM, this is OK too, and this provides a wonderful source for health promotion to these people.

In either case, and you have affirmed this yourself, Former, we need faith in something in order for it to be accepted. And it is obvious that, at least at the present moment, you don't have the faith in TCM, which, again, is ok. Maybe someday you will, maybe you never will. Que sera, sera.

[Former castleva]

Yes,yes.

I don´t have faith in TCM now,and if it suddenly was to develop from what it now is,I would NOT NEED to have faith.
I don´t need to have faith for what I call real medicine (medical science) since I have lots of evidence,objective evidence and a rational basis to work on.It does not require me to either believe in fanciful fields of energies or obscure physiology any more than it´s effectivenes.

"For others who have faith in the value of TCM, this is OK too, and this provides a wonderful source for health promotion to these people."

This is a good point that I have been making.

Faith is essential in this,no matter whether it works or not,how strange may it ever be,it may seem to work because of this faith and the target of this very faith gets the credit.
Unfortunately,faith has limits.


"In either case, and you have affirmed this yourself, Former, we need faith in something in order for it to be accepted. And it is obvious that, at least at the present moment, you don't have the faith in TCM, which, again, is ok. Maybe someday you will, maybe you never will. Que sera, sera."

It depends a bit on how you read me,I´m afraid I might easily find words being put in my mouth.
For this,see what I just wrote above.
The day there is a solid ground for TCM,I need no faith no more.
And the fact that I choose not to believe does not have much emphasis on my life.

[BetaSao]

Former:

Thanks for the response and in validating my previous posts. The fact that Western medicine is working for you has got a lot to do with your faith in the medicine, just as TCM is in relation to the TCM-believers.

Regarding your comment "The day there is a solid ground for TCM, I need no faith no more", I agree and disagree with you. I agree with you on the fact that once you are convinced (by whatever source - quality/quantity), you will no longer be a disbeliever and you will buy into TCM. However, I disagree with you that faith is needed no more, because, as you pointed out yourself as well, faith is very much needed for healing to take place. If you believe in the medicine you need to continually have faith in it to work for it to have any positive results in you. This applies to TCM as well as non-TCM medicine.

And finally, as I have mentioned, there is already ample volume of material both by credited scientific resources as well as common resources vouching for TCM as well as documentation of cases that were cured by TCM. Some of the medical associations even have published guidelines to western doctors on certain indications that are best treated by TCM such as acupuncture. But you put it out best with the word "solid". What is "solid" for me is not necessarily "solid" enough for you. In that aspect, your sceptic view is well taken, and perhaps some day you will be able to find current evidence "solid" enough to merit your faith. If not, then so be it...... the important thing is to stay healthy, TCM or not, both of body, mind, and spirit.

[Former castleva]

"Thanks for the response and in validating my previous posts. The fact that Western medicine is working for you has got a lot to do with your faith in the medicine, just as TCM is in relation to the TCM-believers. "

Ah,you know I feel like I´m experiencing what I call the technique of "I may go down,but I´m taking you with me" which is something I´d expect to hear in a debate over religion (definitely I´m not trying to indicate though,that your reasoning is flawed)
What I´ve tried to say is that there was no requirement to have faith in real medicine for reasons that I´ve already expressed.
I cannot see why I´d need to have faith in it in order for it to work,it will work anyway.
Expectations may influence the outcome and can,but that´s not where it ends.


"Regarding your comment "The day there is a solid ground for TCM, I need no faith no more", I agree and disagree with you. I agree with you on the fact that once you are convinced (by whatever source - quality/quantity), you will no longer be a disbeliever and you will buy into TCM. However, I disagree with you that faith is needed no more, because, as you pointed out yourself as well, faith is very much needed for healing to take place. If you believe in the medicine you need to continually have faith in it to work for it to have any positive results in you. This applies to TCM as well as non-TCM medicine."

The same arguing goes on here.
If you don´t mind,I´d like you to point out why you need faith for healing to take place.
Since anecdotes are very common around here,I´ll finally put on my own.I do have medication for hyperthyroidism,I do not let it control my daily life any more than necessary.I take my pills two times a day,I do not really think about it that much (yet I realize what they consist) Regardless of how I´d like it to be like,they do influence me,and blood testing clearly shows that they do and it is because of them.There´s no faith here,if I were to be involved in a double blind study or related trial,I might be given fake medicine and told they are psychostimulants.It is shown that this could alter the way I react but would it come out that they were actually something else,they would work in their ways.
I´m stable in my position,I conclude that faith need not alter healing itself.I don´t think I said belief is necessary in order for it to be effective (unless it is belief medicine and works randomly)


"And finally, as I have mentioned, there is already ample volume of material both by credited scientific resources as well as common resources vouching for TCM as well as documentation of cases that were cured by TCM. Some of the medical associations even have published guidelines to western doctors on certain indications that are best treated by TCM such as acupuncture. But you put it out best with the word "solid". What is "solid" for me is not necessarily "solid" enough for you. In that aspect, your sceptic view is well taken, and perhaps some day you will be able to find current evidence "solid" enough to merit your faith. "

The day it becomes solid enough is when superstition faces dustbin and rational mechanisms and theory replaces it.
From this perspective,supposed random cases of healing can also be analysed.
But then it would not be alternative medicine anymore.