TCM, MD, L.A.C Sandal!

[cha kuen]

I heard that for MD's they only have to take 200-300 hours of classes to be able to practice Acupuncture. This is a scandal and also not fair because we have to go to school for 3-4 years and learn a ton of herbolgy among other things, while they only need to take 200 hours?

That's wack. The system of medicine is different, they need a lot more than that.

I was talking to my teacher today and he said,

"Yeah that's true. Because MD's rule the world. If they could get rid of all of us, they would in a second. They realize that we're starting to take some of their patients away so some of them go learn acupuncture for 200 hours and they say, "oh you want acupuncture?> HEy I know acupunture too!"

And in the mean time, they keep pushing those perscriptions. It takes 4 years to get good at something like this, not 200 hours"


That's a straight insult that they can get licensed in 200 hours.

[Repulsive Monkey]

This is very unfortunate, thankfully in the UK they are soon thinking of all those who don't spend 3-6 years studying under a registered college, AND getting a practioners diploma/degree, are unable to call themselves acupuncturists. So, and I trully do pray for this, Doctors of western medicine won't even be able to officially say that they even practice acpuncture, justbecause they went on an intensive months worth of half-arsed training under the guidance of other western doctors on the top 20 points to use.
I do hope this action spreads around the wolrd and allows proper respect to be returned back to the TCM doctors/practitioners where it rightly belongs.

[Former castleva]

I do not know how many do actually bother to learn (well in the states,certain ppl are into this type of stuff and thus courses are offered)

"I heard that for MD's they only have to take 200-300 hours of classes to be able to practice Acupuncture. This is a scandal and also not fair because we have to go to school for 3-4 years and learn a ton of herbolgy among other things, while they only need to take 200 hours?"
Around here at least,it takes 6-7 years to become a doctor,provided that one can.
Practicing tcm or related therapy for your whole life will never make you one.
When it comes to a scandal,we´ll see what happens.

"That's wack. The system of medicine is different, they need a lot more than that.

I was talking to my teacher today and he said,

"Yeah that's true. Because MD's rule the world. If they could get rid of all of us, they would in a second. They realize that we're starting to take some of their patients away so some of them go learn acupuncture for 200 hours and they say, "oh you want acupuncture?> HEy I know acupunture too!"
I believe a strong tactic to keep them from taking patients away is well-established education.

And in the mean time, they keep pushing those perscriptions. It takes 4 years to get good at something like this, not 200 hours"


"That's a straight insult that they can get licensed in 200 hours."
I strongly believe it can be insulting that a person can become a "doctor" or a "therapist" of some unproven sort with inferior training and happily eat resources,confused patients,make promises,take their money and better yet,all this in the greatest of peace.

I encourage you to read this article;
http://www.acsh.org/forum/features/quackery.html
It offers some insight into this thing.
Further reading;
http://www.acsh.org/publications/pri...03/chimed.html
http://www.acsh.org/publications/pri...hinesemed.html
http://www.acsh.org/publications/pri...upuncture.html
http://www.acsh.org/publications/pri.../1102/acu.html

For a laugh;
http://www.acsh.org/publications/pri...tters0904.html


Combat goes on.

[cha kuen]

TCM unproven?

I can prove it to you right now. Let's go sit in an acunpunture office and take note of who comes in and listen to them talk when their treatment is done.

They come in hurt. THey go out feeling a lot better.
If you want all that clinical proof I suggest you look through "The web that has no weaver" and you'll find plenty of studies that were done in the US and china (western doctors in china testing tcm), and find sources that you can look it up.


Former, my friend. Sooner or later in your medical career, you're gonna run into one of us and realize that maybe, just maybe, we got a ton to offer.

[cha kuen]

Former,

Like I said, you read the weirdest stuff. Go look at the December 2002 issue of TIME MAGAZINE, a well trusted magazine and you'll have a great stories, unbiased, about TCM.

Or you can keep reading those weird ones and things like "The suicidal man's view on a positive lifestyle" to get your "info"

If i get run over and I need my lung put back in, I'll go see an MD. For everything lesss serious, TCM is the way.

[Repulsive Monkey]

"...Around here at least,it takes 6-7 years to become a doctor,provided that one can.
Practicing tcm or related therapy for your whole life will never make you one.
When it comes to a scandal,we´ll see what happens...."

Strangely enough practising Western medicine all your life will never make you a Doctor of TCM, what are you saying here? Are you that foolish to believe that one is better than the other?? Pleeease.


I like the way how all your sources come from the same website too. Very novel, and so broad a net you cast!!

The legitimacy of Acpunture IS/HAS been proven. Unfortunately time and time again it all comes back to bored and frankly boring obstacle of one model of medicine trying to look at another model od medicine through their own model. Again it's like trying to ask someone who exclusively speaks German to interpret an exclusively Sanskrit text just by reading it alone. How on earth can you test validity from the outside? This is what infuriates me with Western Doctors who bang on about the illegitimacy of Chinese Medicine. Why is it that in China a lot of Traditional Chinese Medicine hospitals and Universities do not labour this outdated and frankly egotistical idea???

I'll leave you with a quote by the genius Mark E Smith :

"Scientists and their blooody childish reading habits"

Believe me he knows incompetence when he sees it!!

[Former castleva]

"I like the way how all your sources come from the same website too. Very novel, and so broad a net you cast!!"
In this thread,I used the resources of "American council on Science and Health".In some of my other threads,I have used different sources.

"Strangely enough practising Western medicine all your life will never make you a Doctor of TCM, what are you saying here? Are you that foolish to believe that one is better than the other?? Pleeease."
It is true that to become a doctor of universal medicine hardly makes one a doctor of Chinese med. and vice versa.
The point is that you want to learn valid medical science to become a real,legal,qualified professional and properly diagnose and treat people based not on concepts of Chinese religion.
When it comes to your question,then I think I would have to go "yes".

"Why is it that in China a lot of Traditional Chinese Medicine hospitals and Universities do not labour this outdated and frankly egotistical idea??? "
I think about half of Chinese medical care is conventional.
Difficulties can be seen in how they managed to keep SARS profile low for possibly a bit too long.
Country is still relatively primitive to some degree.If you looked at those articles that I posted,you can notice that Chinese themselves have been skeptical of tcm.

" "Scientists and their blooody childish reading habits" "
Translation service:Scientists and their intolerance of fantasy,makes me sick.

"Like I said, you read the weirdest stuff. Go look at the December 2002 issue of TIME MAGAZINE, a well trusted magazine and you'll have a great stories, unbiased, about TCM."
I´ve been pulling my punches a bit.I could show a lot more less than promising data.

"Or you can keep reading those weird ones and things like "The suicidal man's view on a positive lifestyle" to get your "info""
Thanks,that was actually a good one.

"If you want all that clinical proof I suggest you look through "The web that has no weaver" and you'll find plenty of studies that were done in the US and china (western doctors in china testing tcm), and find sources that you can look it up. "
Considering that the "proof" was coming from a practitioner of-,I know what it is going to consist of.
What further contradicts any study is the fact that since there is no rational mechanism offered for functionality,it is up to guessing whether it worked or the same old placebo (definitely no evidence for something else so far,in those cases)
I´m saying this just to show that all this skepticism does not grow out of pure "racism" towards something,the best we can do is offer these explanations for related incidents since that is all there seems to be to it,not out of hate or desire to mock something different.
My personal suggestion,in order to establish a theoretical model of function for tcm is to let go of mystical concepts and replace them with scientific ones (this would result in either total collapse,partial collapse or we might find something interesting,possibly) probably some parts would need to be removed.Trough this process,the medicine could become "conventional" if it turns out to have what it takes (but not necessarily have to lose itself)
This is,still,the best move towards the right direction that I have seen so far (if it just was adopted)
http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/neuro2.htm

[looking_up]

Acupuncture has been shown to work on animals. I don't know what sort of studies have been done, but people are not making up stories. How does the placebo effect explain this? I'm curious.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by looking_up
Acupuncture has been shown to work on animals. I don't know what sort of studies have been done, but people are not making up stories. How does the placebo effect explain this? I'm curious.

I own a dog that's a member of a breed susceptible to bloat and, as a potential result, gastric torsion. Over 4.5 years, she's begun to bloat several times (primarily evidenced by crazed licking of everything in sight).

I have two steps I use to "treat" her. If she's really upset, GasX works like magic. However, if it's a mild version, I'll usually shower her with attention and speak to her in a soothing voice. More often than not, it does the trick.

Is it a placebo effect? Not exactly. Is it fundamentally similar? Definitely. Could her discomfort simply be transitory and I could've done nothing? Definitely.

Would this phenomenon be any different for horses? I can't see any reason why not.

[cha kuen]

Former,

You are so closed minded about TCM, it's a waste of your briancells to even post about it.

Western med's biggest nightmare is lowerback pain, neck pain, and carpal tunnel.

Anyways, the point of the post is that MD's shouldn't be able to be certified to practice TCM wtih only 200 hours. That's wack.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by cha kuen
Former,

You are so closed minded about TCM, it's a waste of your briancells to even post about it.

It appears he has some to spare. OTOH, y'all might want to be careful.

Easily as constructive as your comment.

Western med's biggest nightmare is lowerback pain, neck pain, and carpal tunnel.

In general, I agree chronic ailments aren't well-served by Western medicine.

Where we differ? I suspect the level of service they receive from TCM ain't that much better. Or, perhaps more accurately, I expect them to show their efficacy in something approximating an accepted manner. This ain't a small village in China and I ain't Chinese.

Anyways, the point of the post is that MD's shouldn't be able to be certified to practice TCM wtih only 200 hours. That's wack. [/B]

In my state, to become a licensed acupuncturist, you need to pass a test called an NCCAOM. Herbalists, OTOH, don't have any licensing whatsoever.

Looking at the state requirements (Acupuncture Association of Washington), two hundred hours for people who already have completed medical school and a residency appears adequate. Without no medical training whatsoeverl, it requires:

450 hours of training in western science (assuming those are actual hours *not* credit hours in a university sense; anatomy, physiology, microbiology, biochemistry, pathology, western clinical sciences, hygiene, and cardio-pulmonary resuscitation)

750 hours of acupuncture training (fundamental principles, diagnosis, pathology, therapeutics, meridians & points, and acupuncture technique including electroacupuncture)

100 hours of clinical observation and 290 hours of supervised practice

[cha kuen]

Actually TCM is awesome from chronic things, without expensive surgery either.

[Former castleva]

"Acupuncture has been shown to work on animals. I don't know what sort of studies have been done, but people are not making up stories. How does the placebo effect explain this? I'm curious."
Do read "Skeptics on TCM".
Fragbot´s anecdote offers some insight too.
+http://www.acsh.org/publications/pr...s/1102/acu.html already pointed out.
Additionally,neuroendocrinological consequences of stimulation could very well be expected to be similar (as actually shown previously) just without those exceptions.

Additionally read this for further understanding;
http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...altbelief.html

"Actually TCM is awesome from chronic things"
http://www.techcentralstation.com/10...D=1051-123102D

Highly recommended; http://www.acupuncture911.com/

Food for thought:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Interesting information from different sources;
http://www.brainland.com/indiv_news.cfm?ID=205
http://asthma.about.com/library/weekly/aa080299.htm
http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/co...tract/33/1/186
http://whyquit.com/whyquit/A_Acup.html
http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/wk...serID=biz_aama

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m09...rm=acupuncture

[looking_up]

Former,

Thanks for the thorough reply.

So, are you really a Depressed Neuroscientist?

Why the obsession...er, heavy interest in disproving TCM? Did a
chinaman kill yo' daddy?

(poor attempt at humor)

I would agree that there need to be strict standards out there
for the practice of TCM - so that the quacks don't ruin it for the
people that know what they are doing and CAN ACTUALLY HELP
PEOPLE, which is the bottom line for serious health care workers.
Or should be.

[Former castleva]

"Thanks for the thorough reply."
That´s pretty much allright.

"So, are you really a Depressed Neuroscientist?"
Well,I´m highly depressed to a depressing degree.
It would require some degree of arrogance to consider myself a neuroscientist from this position but when it comes to that and certain other fields,passion might just be there.

"Why the obsession...er, heavy interest in disproving TCM? Did a
chinaman kill yo' daddy? "
Nope,he´s still alive and kicking (not the bucket)
I like to debate some where I feel it may be beneficial,add educational purposes and it may even be of some value,maybe.

"(poor attempt at humor) "
It´s fine,I hardly blinked an eye.

"I would agree that there need to be strict standards out there
for the practice of TCM - so that the quacks don't ruin it for the
people that know what they are doing and CAN ACTUALLY HELP
PEOPLE, which is the bottom line for serious health care workers.
Or should be."
I agree with your agreement.