TCM, MD, L.A.C Sandal!

[cha kuen]

Former,

The websites you post are all weird to begin with!

quackery.com?

whynot.com?

acupunture911.com?

How come I dont' see any regular, credible magazines or sites? You're searching for ansers in the wrong places.

Like I said, "The suicidal person's outlook on a positive life"

[Former castleva]

"Like I said, "The suicidal person's outlook on a positive life""
I still do not get this.

"Former,

The websites you post are all weird to begin with!

quackery.com?

whynot.com?

acupunture911.com?

How come I dont' see any regular, credible magazines or sites? You're searching for ansers in the wrong places. "

I recently used resources from 11 sites.
They are probably better than pop magazines,what would you think? All studies are for real.
You seem to have a problem with the fact that they do not seem to support your beliefs,then they suddenly are not credible anymore (they become "weird")
You accuse me of being extremely close minded about tcm,yet I am able to read (I think we are talking about an ad hominem)
How close minded does one have to be to not see this?
There most certainly is a line between being close minded and critical.It may not be good to stick one´s head into sand but to keep rushing on head on without a thought may never lead to discoveries either.

[guohuen]

The guy at quackery that doesn't believe accupunture works is a retired psychiatrist and his email doesn't work.

[cha kuen]

Looking at TCM from a western view is pointless.

[Pilgrim]

Looking at the Oregon school of Oriental Medicine's 2003-2004 Master of Oriental Medicine and Acupucture catalog the hours/credit breakdown is
First year 852 hours 60.25 credits
2nd year 1006.0 hours 71.01 credits
3rd year 1,210.0 hours 68.67 credits
total 3,116.0 hours 200.93 credits
I figure this is probably similar to most of the accredited schools out there. OCOM will also be the first school to get the docterate program going, this fall 2003. PCOM and another school should be getting their docterate programs going in the very near future also.
Anyone out there in internet land can get catalogs from all the acupuncture schools for free or for a very small price. School is very intense, lots of western medicine and lot more Chinese medicine.
Chinese medicine is fantastic medicine, with lots of advantages over allopathic medicine. The Wall Street Journal had a large article discussing the fact that herbal decoctions have had the best success treating and in prevention of SARS.
Preventative medicine is one of the strong points of Chinese medicine. Of course that is a wierd concept for Americans and other western nationalities - seeing a docter when you are not sick. Like I said health care has a lot to do with life style and personal decisions about what is appropriate for me.
No more from me
Pilgrim

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Pilgrim
Chinese medicine is fantastic medicine, with lots of advantages over allopathic medicine. The Wall Street Journal had a large article discussing the fact that herbal decoctions have had the best success treating and in prevention of SARS.

Since you obviously never read the article, I'll save everyone else the trouble of searching for it and post a link to the copyright violation:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Wa...4ax.com&rnum=1

The article was a nicety, but its content barely supports its own headline much less your assertion "herbal decoctions have had the best success treating and in prevention [sic] of SARS."

[Former castleva]

SARS statement is absolutely ludicrious,safe as far as proof need not be shown.
It is very amusing considering that there is no basis for infectious/viral diseases down there.

Key points;
"Thus far, there is no clinical evidence that
cow urine extract, pounded almonds or ginger do any good against
stubborn viruses like the one that causes SARS. But as far as anyone
can tell, such treatments don't hurt either. "
Did not necessarily surprise."Won´t hurt" is not too promising considering what we are talking about here.
Maybe urine therapy could offer some answers.

"I do believe some formulas might work in terms of relieving the
symptoms and may even enhance the body's defense system," says Cheng
Yung-chi, a professor of pharmacology at Yale University School of
Medicine. "As far as their direct antiviral properties are concerned,
that is questionable. But as long as they are handled with care, they
should be tried."
Based on belief,this idea is.
I wonder how this statement of "enchance the body´s defense system" will be backed up? Such scientific sounding statements are not too rare among quackery but even more unfounded.

"Doctors say such medicines haven't been used in Hong
Kong hospitals since before World War II, when they were banned by the
occupying Japanese as unscientific."


"But many Chinese are more apt to listen to their grandmothers than
they are to health officials or scientists in white coats."
This is very sad.
Reminds me how so many Chinese women were recently rushing to hospitals to get their children delivered (even if it requires surgery) before astrologically "bad" year.

The most brutal form of reality check might be that of SARS being able to succesfully spread into rural regions where health care is probably wanting.Of course such a nightmare is not desirable in any respect.

I shall be adding that while we are likely to be unaware of cow urine´s possible therapeutic value,it does not necessary help that we cannot say how safe it is to combine it with conventional medication.

Thanks for posting the article (and for the replies too)

[azwingchun]

I didn't waste my time reading all the post, just kinda skimmed through, but I noticed a buzz word which always seems to come up when referring to alternative medicine and that is 'placebo'. I have asked this question before somewhere on this forum before with no response from anyone.

If the placebo affect is to be the reason that alternative medicine works, then why do so many people still get sick when they get a flu shot, why do so many people still die when they are being treated for cancer by Western medicine? What happened to the placebo affect when treated by Western medicine? I would think if the placebo affect is so strong it would happen in both instances. I think this term is thrown around way to often to describe something others don't understand. Just my .02 cents.

[azwingchun]

To get back on topic of the thread, I recall a time when My TCM doctor was doing an alternative medicine show, where everyone had booths set up and you could get advice and treatments for free or a minimal fee. My TCM doctor (Dr. Chow) was set up next to an M.D. who also did acupucture (just a few hours of training), and had tried to pull people out of Dr. Chow's line and when the patient asked why she should go to her (the M.D.'s) booth, her response was 'because I am a doctor'.

To make a long story short, she wasn't able to help relieve this lady of her pain. Dr. Chow went over and used what he calls wrist and ankle acupuncture and the pain disappeared within a few minutes. The M.D. couldn't believe it and actually had him come and give a speech on acupunture to her and her M.D. friends.

[Former castleva]

"If the placebo affect is to be the reason that alternative medicine works, then why do so many people still get sick when they get a flu shot, why do so many people still die when they are being treated for cancer by Western medicine? What happened to the placebo affect when treated by Western medicine? I would think if the placebo affect is so strong it would happen in both instances. I think this term is thrown around way to often to describe something others don't understand. Just my .02 cents. "
At first,alternative medicine does not work that much as we know.Placebo only goes so far.
Is it that we do not understand or are we expected to accept logical fallacies? (Introduction to logical fallacies http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/ )
What can occam´s razor tell us? (introducing OR http://www.skepdic.com/occam.html )
Your question assumes that so and so many get sick or die even though they get treatment,it´s true.It is also rather obvious that not always can you heal someone (did not strike too hard I´d think) One can only guess what the situation would be without those treatments,you must be aware of all the improvements they have brought.
It is completely useless to argue about such a thing,it is better to realize the facts.

"To get back on topic of the thread, I recall a time when My TCM doctor was doing an alternative medicine show, where everyone had booths set up and you could get advice and treatments for free or a minimal fee. My TCM doctor (Dr. Chow) was set up next to an M.D. who also did acupucture (just a few hours of training), and had tried to pull people out of Dr. Chow's line and when the patient asked why she should go to her (the M.D.'s) booth, her response was 'because I am a doctor'.

To make a long story short, she wasn't able to help relieve this lady of her pain. Dr. Chow went over and used what he calls wrist and ankle acupuncture and the pain disappeared within a few minutes. The M.D. couldn't believe it and actually had him come and give a speech on acupunture to her and her M.D. friends."

Anecdote...
It does not really manage to support an argument or two.

Non-falsifiable being.I once had a pet duck,my pet duck got sick and I took him to a vet.My pet duck became healthy and happy.
One day a snake-oil salesman approached him and my duck agressively burst out saying "QUACK!" "QUACK!" "QUACK!".

[cha kuen]

Former

You and your great source of websites.

skeptics.com
quakery.com


hehe

[Former castleva]

In my recent post,I used two sources to make my point (which neither of,was one of those)
However,I have used many sites as one can notice.

Those websites seem to be more yours than mine.
I do not recall having used quakery.com (nor would it help)
Neither do I think I have used skeptics.com

[fragbot]

Originally posted by azwingchun


If the placebo affect is to be the reason that alternative medicine works, then why do so many people still get sick when they get a flu shot, why do so many people still die when they are being treated for cancer by Western medicine? What happened to the placebo affect when treated by Western medicine? I would think if the placebo affect is so strong it would happen in both instances.

In the past, you've probably never received a response because the question is answerable.

In some sort of order:

1) why do some people get sick after they've gotten a flu shot?

Well, I suppose what you really meant to ask is: why do some people get the flu following a flu shot?

Most probable answer: a vaccine is formulated for common variations of the virus causing the flu (is this regional?). If you're exposed to another mutation of the virus, it offers little or no protection. Likewise, I'd expect people with compromised immune systems may still get the flu even with a shot. However, they often don't get as sick as they would otherwise and recover more quickly.

I don't have access to medline, but I suspect if you asked FC some detailed questions he'd post some excerpts from immunology research for you.

2) why do people still die when being treated for cancer with Western medicine?

Ummm, because cancer treatment isn't a 100% thing. Disingenuous question since any oncologist will explain survival rates in probabilistic terms. Thus, some cancers have poor long-term survival rates (it's my understanding stomach cancer's in this category) while others have much better long-term survival rates.

3) What happens to the placebo effect when treated with western medicine?

Ummm, it's still there and research on efficacy must control for its effect. This is why the methodology of research is so important and best practice is a double-blind studies that attempt to remove the patient and caregiver's biases from the "efficacy equation."

NOTE: I concede double-blind studies might not be appropriate in all areas. However, there are other methodologies that help account for the placebo effect as well.

[azwingchun]

I apologize that you didn't see what I was getting at. My statements were meant and staed as sarcasm. my point was that when people are healed by alternative medicine people always say that it must of or is the placebo affect. So with that said, why doesn't the placebo affect work with such things that reallt supposedly work......such as the flu shot.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand where you are coming from when speaking of various flu strains and people who die from cancer. This isn't or wasn't my point, my point is why does the placebo affect work much better with alternative medicine than with Western medicine? I am not speaking for all alternative medicine, by the way not all is good, I do realize this. Not to mention the many practitioners out there selling the so-called snake oil. But, with the few TCM doctors that I have had the pleasure to be around, their success rates are amazing. Not to mention many of these patients came to them as a last resort after Western medicine couldn't help.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by azwingchun I apologize that you didn't see what I was getting at. My statements were meant and staed as sarcasm. my point was that when people are healed by alternative medicine people always say that it must of or is the placebo affect. So with that said, why doesn't the placebo affect work with such things that reallt supposedly work......such as the flu shot.

This isn't or wasn't my point, my point is why does the placebo affect work much better with alternative medicine than with Western medicine?

Conceptually, the point you are arguing is absurd. Whether we're talking about TCM or Western medicine, the placebo effect is important. I've never seen a single person argue it's more "effective" for TCM. Instead, it's a simple realization that anecdotes of "it worked for me" are an awful tool for judging something's effectiveness. If your bias is to see it work, it will. Likewise, if the provider can influence you, many people will believe it worked. Hence the need for well-designed research to show it's effectiveness.

I am not speaking for all alternative medicine, by the way not all is good, I do realize this. Not to mention the many practitioners out there selling the so-called snake oil. But, with the few TCM doctors that I have had the pleasure to be around, their success rates are amazing. Not to mention many of these patients came to them as a last resort after Western medicine couldn't help.

In my case, it's not a matter of snake-oil or not. It's the what-should-be trivial ability to make informed health care decisions. Decisions based on something approximating well-done research.

Look at this debate, much of the response is in the "it worked for me" camp. On a bulletin board focused on Chinese culture, there will be many people who self-select for bias *towards* TCM for various reasons. Instead of viewing the situation objectively and critically, I'd posit they're more likely than the population as a whole to see what they want to see--the genius of ancient Chinese wisdom*. Thus, they'll either "will" the malady away (AKA the power of belief or the placebo effect) or falsely attribute the source of their relief (eg, I took po chai pills and my stomach feels better. They must work.; ummm, maybe your stomach was just getting better anyway?)

Earlier in this thread, I posted a link to an article on (I think) an acupuncture site somewhere. If possible, read the article, paying close attention to the hierarchy of evidence for efficacy (or something like that). If you do this, do the following gedanken experiment:

if the labels on the hierarchies were inadvertently switched, what would your confidence level be in Western medicine?

*anyone remember the "we need more Calgon" commercials? Pure comedic genius.