TCM, MD, L.A.C Sandal!

[Former castleva]

"So with that said, why doesn't the placebo affect work with such things that reallt supposedly work......such as the flu shot."
Basically,such a treatment (injection,we have here as a prime example) is,and at the very least should be cabable of working beyond mere wish of it (thus the injection)
Just like a drug,whether you want it or not,active chemicals will most likely enter your bloodstream.
These can hardly be compared for real.
And as previously said and further explained by fragbot,vaccine (as an exam.) lurks there for a reason.

"my point is why does the placebo affect work much better with alternative medicine than with Western medicine? "
Placebo certainly affects western medicine,such things as health care provider´s relationship to patient and related things can make a difference (talk about psychosomatic effects)
A bit of a slow description on placebo effect http://www.skepdic.com/placebo.html
The thing is,you cannot seriously trust that any faith in the world will remove an underlying pathology.
I´m not all too confident if I understand you right,but if you´re wondering why placebo effect pops up so often when dealing with alternative medicine,it is due to the fact that it may very well be it´s functioning mechanism.Such an effect is probably cabable of bringing some temporary pain relief (as often suggested in this context) while the disease/condition may take it´s natural course,and finally a hokey treatment may work trough counter-irritation and related effect.
These being brought down,this would indicate that the mechanism is something different than claimed to be.

[looking_up]

Brother (Former Castelva),

After suffering over 10 years of depression that basically ruined my life, I am finally feeling what it is like to be alive again after
two years of spotty zhan zhuang and 5 months of herb therapy. I was even able to quit a 10 year smoking habit No thanks to all of the psychologists/psychiatrists that I had seen and paid tons of money to. The herbs made a huge difference. Helped clear up all sorts of ills I had, blood sugar problems, constant fatigue, etc.

My TCM doctor is 8th generation and was also trained in Western biomedical science. He is no witchdoctor.


Best,
LU

[Former castleva]

"After suffering over 10 years of depression that basically ruined my life, I am finally feeling what it is like to be alive again after
two years of spotty zhan zhuang and 5 months of herb therapy. I was even able to quit a 10 year smoking habit No thanks to all of the psychologists/psychiatrists that I had seen and paid tons of money to. The herbs made a huge difference. Helped clear up all sorts of ills I had, blood sugar problems, constant fatigue, etc."

At first,I´m sincerely glad to hear that you have survived depression.I realize it is important to get yourself going,become active to fight it by whatever your tools are.I´m battling depression on daily basis myself (which you were might very well have been aware of)
That being said,I mean no offense when I say that I´m again getting "force fed" with another appealing anecdote (considering the context)


Thanks for posting.

Best wishes to you too.

[cha kuen]

Hey Former,

When you want to post and use the previous person's commnets, you might want to click on the "QUOTE" which is next to the FONT, when you post

That way it will make everything easier to read.

[looking_up]

"That being said,I mean no offense when I say that I´m again getting "force fed" with another appealing anecdote (considering the context)"

You don't have to eat if you don't want to, but I wanted you to be aware that the dish is out there. I wish someone had suggested these things to me when I was younger so I didn't have to waste so much of my youth searching for real healing.

Take it easy.

[Former castleva]

"When you want to post and use the previous person's commnets, you might want to click on the "QUOTE" which is next to the FONT, when you post

That way it will make everything easier to read."

Sorry.I kinda prefer it this way,out of learned habit.


"You don't have to eat if you don't want to, but I wanted you to be aware that the dish is out there. I wish someone had suggested these things to me when I was younger so I didn't have to waste so much of my youth searching for real healing.

Take it easy."

I see.
I´ll try taking it easy.

[cha kuen]

"You don't have to eat if you don't want to, but I wanted you to be aware that the dish is out there. I wish someone had suggested these things to me when I was younger so I didn't have to waste so much of my youth searching for real healing.

Doesnt' this look nice? hello? Use the "QUOTE" system!

[Jack Squat]

Former,

By your postings, I see why you are so depressed. You have bought into the AMA's BS......

Please try to keep an open mind. Here's another viewpoint:

In 1997, experts from various fields (including MD's, PhD's, and acupuncturists) reviewed the evidence and made what was called the National Institute of Health Consensus Statement on Acupuncture. It reads:

"There is clear evidence that needle acupuncture is efficacious for adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and probably for the nausea of pregnancy. Much of the evidence is on various pain problems. There is evidence of efficacy for postoperative dental pain. There are reasonalbe studies (although sometimes only single studies) showing relief of pain with acupuncture on diverse pain conditions such as menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, and fibromyalgia. This suggests that acupuncture may have a more general effect on pain. However, there are also studies that do not find efficacy for acupuncture in pain".

Also, please note the RCT's are about 50 years old, while TCM is 4500 years old, and there has only been adequate funding sources for alternative medicine research in the last 4 or 5 years.

Note as well-why would some studies report acupuncture not having efficacy for pain control? I suggest that perhaps the wrong points were selected / the acupuncturists were not good (not all are!). It's just like psychology-there are behaviorists, Freudians, etc. Not every branch of psychology is effective in certain situations. Does that mean psychology doesn't work? I would like to see what modalities were used in all of the studies, including the study designs themselves.

I certainly don't think acupuncture is a cure-all, but it can help with many conditions. I have a degree in Psychology and know all about placebo effect, etc. Do you know that ALL medicine (including pharmocologal) is 30% placebo? In fact, a current study done at Harvard medical (and published everywhere-including the AARP and other "popular" magazines) proved that orthoscopic knee surgery had the same success rate as placebo surgery! Do those skeptic websites also attack Western medicine? How about the considerable amount of deaths each year caused by "mistakes" at hospitals and perscription drug interactions? Do you know that the statistics show that you have a greater chance of dying in a hospital due to a mistake than by dying in a car accident? How many deaths are caused each year by acupuncture?

Do you know that the World Health Organization has publically endorsed acupuncture for a laundry list of conditions? Are they deluded quacks as well?

My perspective is that the MD's fear acupuncture because of one thing...money. I would recommend that you do some serious research into the history of medicine in America, but you are depresed enough already......

On a personal note, have you sought out any treatment for your depression? There are many newer Rx's that are great for it, and they don't have as many side effects as the old ones. I'm not knocking Western medicine, I encourage you to get some help. Why continue to suffer? (But I believe that TCM can help as well).

And finally, I have been involved in clinical trials (in psychology) and I know how statistics (which are supposedly validators of scientific efficacy) can be skewed to support or disprove ones position. I've done it myself, therefore, I don't believe every study I read. What I do believe is what I see with my own eyes. If I know someone who gets relief from acupuncture (and I know many)and they tell me so, I believe it. When they say that they went to every MD and Chriopractor under the sun with no help, then Joe Acupuncturist helped, I believe it. Is it placebo? If it helps, who cares? These are real people with real feelings of pain. If acupuncture makes it go away, then it's real to me.


Take care.

Jack

[Former castleva]

"By your postings, I see why you are so depressed. You have bought into the AMA's BS......"
Possible ad hominem.


"There is clear evidence that needle acupuncture is efficacious for adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and probably for the nausea of pregnancy. Much of the evidence is on various pain problems. There is evidence of efficacy for postoperative dental pain. There are reasonalbe studies (although sometimes only single studies) showing relief of pain with acupuncture on diverse pain conditions such as menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, and fibromyalgia. This suggests that acupuncture may have a more general effect on pain. However, there are also studies that do not find efficacy for acupuncture in pain"."


This study finds little help from acupuncture for tennis elbow;
http://www.update-software.com/abstracts/ab003527.htm

Acupuncture listed as unproven in terms of treating fibromyalgia;
http://www.systoc.com/CMEcourses/wolk/tsld056.htm

Data like this would seem to contradict these claims.


"Also, please note the RCT's are about 50 years old, while TCM is 4500 years old, and there has only been adequate funding sources for alternative medicine research in the last 4 or 5 years."
I have seen the argument to antiquity before.


"Do you know that the World Health Organization has publically endorsed acupuncture for a laundry list of conditions? Are they deluded quacks as well? "


Hard to say since I have not looked at that so much yet.
Unfortunately regulated does not mean valid.
Someone pointed out that tcm had been accepted in Canada as an example,but not the whole country agrees;
http://www.crhp.net/crhp.htm


"Note as well-why would some studies report acupuncture not having efficacy for pain control? I suggest that perhaps the wrong points were selected / the acupuncturists were not good (not all are!). It's just like psychology-there are behaviorists, Freudians, etc. Not every branch of psychology is effective in certain situations. Does that mean psychology doesn't work? I would like to see what modalities were used in all of the studies, including the study designs themselves."


Since you are that interested,you might want to be skeptical of those certain positive studies of few and far between.
It is reported that they are often poorly constructed.
When it comes to psychology btw,I prefer evolutionary psychology over many others but that´s another issue.
Is not it a bit odd to suggest that it was just bad practitioners or wrong points? Unlike those on opposing side,I have released a decent amount of material that talks for ineffective tcm/acupuncture,along with other concerning material.
In some cases,right points do give same results that wrong ones do,which can be that of none.
It is interesting to me that when it comes to positive trials,it can often be said that it helped this or this pain for a while but there are many negative trials.This would suggest that unlike fancy meridians and forces to be triggered (which obviously choose,according to studies,"when to go to work" so to speak)
it works trough placebo and counter-irritation (like a mosquito bite that you want to scratch,it won´t leave but it releases endorphins etc. and you feel it helped)

"I certainly don't think acupuncture is a cure-all, but it can help with many conditions. I have a degree in Psychology and know all about placebo effect, etc. Do you know that ALL medicine (including pharmocologal) is 30% placebo? In fact, a current study done at Harvard medical (and published everywhere-including the AARP and other "popular" magazines) proved that orthoscopic knee surgery had the same success rate as placebo surgery! Do those skeptic websites also attack Western medicine? How about the considerable amount of deaths each year caused by "mistakes" at hospitals and perscription drug interactions? Do you know that the statistics show that you have a greater chance of dying in a hospital due to a mistake than by dying in a car accident? How many deaths are caused each year by acupuncture?"

-I did not know pharmacological medicine is 30% placebo.Would you like to show me where I could check this out if possible?
-Skeptic sites do not attack western medicine as far as I know but rather antiscientific medicine which has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt.
-This medicine/death argument I have dealt with a couple of times already in total.But where do you go after a car accident if morgue is not your next stop? Where do you get treated at?
I know I have been quite close to possible death by suffocation but I am still typing,nobody is to ask why.
-All I know is acupuncture has caused a few deaths,among other complications.Herbs are known to have caused various problems and fatalities.
These I have shown earlier.
You can go to www.acupuncture911.com for some insight.
It is obvious that acupuncture or related therapy won´t directly cause as much undesired damage as real medicine may have caused.
What you should have thought about by now is that when a man´s best choise used to be acupuncture or a prayer,deaths and suffering from causes that we can now avoid or defeat much have been great.
A tiny needle on your skin or a remedy diluted into tap water,or a leaf may not represent great danger but neither will hoping that the condition goes away by itself.What both of these have in common is the fact that one may very well pass away on his/her own.
The prescription drug that you are given may&will cause side-effects and as you put it can be dangerous but the fact that there are side-effects serves to confirm the fact that it is potent enough to work beyond mere hope for the better.

My favourite take on "complementary" medicine I have witnessed so far (if it can ever be considered such) is darwinian medicine,I do not know what comes out of this method.


"On a personal note, have you sought out any treatment for your depression? There are many newer Rx's that are great for it, and they don't have as many side effects as the old ones. I'm not knocking Western medicine, I encourage you to get some help. Why continue to suffer? (But I believe that TCM can help as well)."
Technically I have,yes.
I´m yet to see a shred of evidence that tcm can help,I´ve seen some evidence that indicates it may not help.
Basically,psychiatry itself is still young but no more would I go looking for help from a branch of medicine which likes to link your intestines and related organs to your emotions (a fact)


"And finally, I have been involved in clinical trials (in psychology) and I know how statistics (which are supposedly validators of scientific efficacy) can be skewed to support or disprove ones position. I've done it myself, therefore, I don't believe every study I read. What I do believe is what I see with my own eyes. If I know someone who gets relief from acupuncture (and I know many)and they tell me so, I believe it. When they say that they went to every MD and Chriopractor under the sun with no help, then Joe Acupuncturist helped, I believe it. Is it placebo? If it helps, who cares? These are real people with real feelings of pain. If acupuncture makes it go away, then it's real to me.
"

Very little can I add to this.I have been given anecdotes for a time or two.
BTW,I would not necessarily go to a chiropractor for help.Recent studies link them to stroke risk and some of their methods and concepts are quackery.

[Jack Squat]

Former,

Thanks for the quick reply. I can see that you will be a tough one to convince. I went to the acupuncture911 site. Boy do they hate acupuncture! My question is this-who exactly sponsors this site. You like to quote info from them, but why do you trust them so much? Lets use REAL medical sites as the standard. How about JAMA (The Journal of the American Medical Association)? Every medical doctor in the US lives by and trusts the info presented in JAMA. Do a search in JAMA for acupuncture and see what you find. I already have, and there are plenty of respected, peer-reviewed medical studies proving the efficacy of acupuncture. If you can find some reason that JAMA would be a part of the acupuncture conspiracy, go to Medline or to the National Library of Medicine, and do searches there. The point is that in the true medical journals, scientific evidence is given precedence over clinical anecdotal experience (or sensationalistic quackery claims). The sites that you quote from are so incredibly biased, please just go to the true medical websites. If you do and still aren't convinced, then I'll leave you to your psychosis.....

Acupuncture911 looks to be based out of Canada. I cannot speak for Canada, but in the US, acupuncture is indeed regulated. The acupuncturists are required to use single-use disposable needles or must autoclave the needles if they are going to reuse them, as per OSHA standards. In reality, 99.9% of acupuncturists here use the single use disposable type, they are so cheap and freely accessable; it's a hassle to have to autoclave. The risk of contamination is basically null. (All insertion sites are cleaned prior to insertion to reduce the risk of any pathogen on the surface being carried inside the body by the needle.)

Acupuncture911 seems to have a major devotion to inspire fear in alternative medicine-they simply try to point out "horror stories" and knock the account of Rosenthols China experiences. I don't care about Rosenthols account of what he feels he saw in China in 1971- Give me the science-based Journal of the American Medical Association anyday.

Regarding my stats on the placebo effect-how about visiting the above referenced sites and find out for yourself? Something tells me that you won't believe me anyway.

Let me leave you with this, I am on a board of the largest medical hospital in my area. This grants me access to information that most do not have access to. I feel that Western (allopathic) medicine has it's merits as well as drawbacks, as do all types of medicine. I can and do use Western Medicine for SOME situations, I also use TCM as well. The future is in the integration of both.

Jack

[Jack Squat]

Former,

I forgot to ask- Why have you been "close to death by suffocation"?????

Jack

[Jack Squat]

Former,

I can't find any info on acupuncture911 as to who they are (who publishes or sponsors it) Why don't they tell anything about themselves? Is it just me and I can't find it? Can you help?

Jack

[Former castleva]

Point by point.

"I can't find any info on acupuncture911 as to who they are (who publishes or sponsors it) Why don't they tell anything about themselves? Is it just me and I can't find it? Can you help?"

Neither can I.It seems to me too that they are based on Canada.
However,this does not seem to be a central issue as far as their reports are legitimate.

"I forgot to ask- Why have you been "close to death by suffocation"?????"

By this I do mean that I have suffered a few severe asthma attacks.

"Thanks for the quick reply. I can see that you will be a tough one to convince. I went to the acupuncture911 site. Boy do they hate acupuncture! My question is this-who exactly sponsors this site. You like to quote info from them, but why do you trust them so much? Lets use REAL medical sites as the standard. "

Comparatively,I have been quoting them to a degree at best.
Additionally,I have used well over 10 sites (maybe closer to 20) to make my points (this includes many a link to sites that you might consider real by this logic)

"The point is that in the true medical journals, scientific evidence is given precedence over clinical anecdotal experience (or sensationalistic quackery claims). The sites that you quote from are so incredibly biased, please just go to the true medical websites. If you do and still aren't convinced, then I'll leave you to your psychosis....."

The thing is we do get this highly contradictory results.
You are right that there are studies that speak FOR questionable therapies.
Since such treatments cling to ancient beliefs it is hard to directly say whether they work or not,in order to build a convincing scientific basis for them,they would have to turn it into science (speak the same language)
What follows is that we get plenty of study that speaks for quackery and study that makes quackery seem as if it would work,considering where it comes from,it is not all that arrogant imo to posit that it may be due to reasons other than claimed to be,leaving many questions unanswered.
I would not resort to that psychosis statement if I were to argue.

"Regarding my stats on the placebo effect-how about visiting the above referenced sites and find out for yourself? Something tells me that you won't believe me anyway."

I might visit,yes.



"Let me leave you with this, I am on a board of the largest medical hospital in my area. This grants me access to information that most do not have access to. I feel that Western (allopathic) medicine has it's merits as well as drawbacks, as do all types of medicine. I can and do use Western Medicine for SOME situations, I also use TCM as well. The future is in the integration of both."

I do not see a need for integration but time will show.

[Jack Squat]

Former,

I apologize for the "psychosis" statement. Please accept.......It won't happen again.

In other news,
I guess my view on TCM can be summed up as this-

If you have a modality which can accurately predict changes in a disease pattern and it's use can indeed effect these changes, I can accept it as valid. To use a metaphor, it does not matter to me if you define a formation of clouds as "stratified" or as "the viel of the Gods". If you can accurately predict when it will rain using your system, and do so, I will view it as valid. The names are simply names (a rose is a rose....)

TCM does indeed "work", whether it's by biochemistry or "chi". Why does the label matter so much? The point is that it is a system of logic driven relationships that are manipulated in accordance with "rules" which define outcome probabilities. Would you accept it more if a man in a white lab coat and several initials after his name stated that it worked due to an explainable release of biochemicals such as norephinephrine? As far as I know, science has failed to measure that thing called "life" which separates animate matter form nonanimate matter, yet common sense tells me that things do "live".

I know you don't like anecdotal evidence, but I have witnessed with my own eyes this situation- A person was being needled for a certain condition. She had never had acupuncture before and knew nothing about it or it's basic theories. Yet she accurately described where she felt "something" moving up her arm and eventually into her head area. She described perfectly the path of her sensations which directly corresponded to the path of an acupuncture channel. This cannot be explained as nerve conduction, as there are no corresponding nerves which travel in that exact way. How is this explained?

And finally, one more point regarding animal studies. I have seen, after a distal point being stimulated, that other points along the channel "swell", allowing one to visually identify the channel pathway on horses. Again, this pathway has no corresponding anatomy to explain it, and there is no way placebo can explain it. Please don't insult my intelligence and say that I was "conned" or "tricked" by a quack, as I personally know the human patient anyway, and she could not have possibly known the pathway of the channel, yet she accurately described it to a "T". I am not some gullible dolt, I am trained in Western science (as much as human behavior can be considered a "science!"). The "qi", or "whatever" travels in pathways that are not yet know by Western science.

Jack

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Jack Squat
Former,

I apologize for the "psychosis" statement. Please accept.......It won't happen again.

You're on the wrong thread. Mental illness can be foundhere.

In other news,
I guess my view on TCM can be summed up as this-

If you have a modality which can accurately predict changes in a disease pattern and it's use can indeed effect these changes, I can accept it as valid. To use a metaphor, it does not matter to me if you define a formation of clouds as "stratified" or as "the viel of the Gods". If you can accurately predict when it will rain using your system, and do so, I will view it as valid. The names are simply names (a rose is a rose....)

I don't think anyone would disagree with this statement. However, what's up with the people who get upset when asked for well-designed research to support the assertion of efficacy?

Yes, I know it's irrelevant, but I'll leave it anyway.

TCM does indeed "work", whether it's by biochemistry or "chi".

You're sure of this? I'd think someone trying to be accurate would say parts of TCM appear to be effective while other parts deserve to be dumped in the dustbin of history. Look at the thread I referenced, the efficacy of acupuncture (something I'm mostly convinced is reasonably effective for chronic pain) versus wondering if too much ejaculation is bad for your health.

I know you don't like anecdotal evidence, but I have witnessed with my own eyes this situation- A person was being needled for a certain condition. She had never had acupuncture before and knew nothing about it or it's basic theories. Yet she accurately described where she felt "something" moving up her arm and eventually into her head area. She described perfectly the path of her sensations which directly corresponded to the path of an acupuncture channel. This cannot be explained as nerve conduction, as there are no corresponding nerves which travel in that exact way. How is this explained?

I don't know how it's explained. Would you expect it to be widely reproducible under controlled conditions?

If it is/isn't, what would this mean?

The "qi", or "whatever" travels in pathways that are not yet know by Western science.

For the sake of a conversation, assume the previous statement is correct, would you speculate on how western science could "find" the passageways?

Just saying they're "unfindable" would pretty much ruin our discussion.