TCM, MD, L.A.C Sandal!

[azwingchun]

All that I´ve heard so far seems to only confirm the fact that there was a failure,whether it was considered alt. or not.

Where do you find the failure part, because they told him so? This very same treatment is being tested and now used now by others on various other virus forms. So, my question is why is this? Just an honest question.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Let's there is a child who is diagnosed with polio, the doctor say this kid at best will be in crutches if not a wheelchair. The child is then treated with (again) so-called un-proven alternative medicine and his cured. What would be your statement to this situation?

Look for my message on your table...

LMAO!!!!!

[Jack Squat]

Fragbot,

Acupuncture results due to only irritation to an area? How does that turn a breach baby around? Why doesn't the irritation of a pierced ear or the rubbing of too tight underwear do the same thing?

Former,

Man, that last one hurt! I type all that and you find it useless???!!!! Ouch! I'm keeping my posts short now!!!!

On second thought, maybe the stimulation of the keys on my finger tips can help with my sore throat.....man I love this TCM placebo effect!

Jack

[Former castleva]

"Where do you find the failure part, because they told him so? This very same treatment is being tested and now used now by others on various other virus forms. So, my question is why is this? Just an honest question. "

Hmmmm.
I think one of us might have misread something.
I confess I know very little about the origins and nature of this story that you told,I did take it for granted that it is for real and commented on that.
Whether this treatment which I still do not know much of has been found effective for some other causes is another issue.
Can you give me some reference so I would learn more too?


"Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Let's there is a child who is diagnosed with polio, the doctor say this kid at best will be in crutches if not a wheelchair. The child is then treated with (again) so-called un-proven alternative medicine and his cured. What would be your statement to this situation?"

Never happened,will never happen...unless you provide evidence.
You´re just ridiculing alternative medicine for me.
These days we do have polio vaccines that many quacks might want to destroy.


"On second thought, maybe the stimulation of the keys on my finger tips can help with my sore throat.....man I love this TCM placebo effect!"

Ha-ha lol.
That was a good one I must admit.
You´re exposing their logic very well.
I´ve also read you can boost your will to learn by pressing one of your fingertips (triple-burner if I remember correctly)

"Man, that last one hurt! I type all that and you find it useless???!!!! Ouch! I'm keeping my posts short now!!!!"

I apologize.
I did not mean to come off rude,I swear.

[azwingchun]

Never happened,will never happen...unless you provide evidence.

Unfortunately, I don't have the documentation around this story since I haven't seen not one of my family members in almost 8 years nor do I have any contact with them. But that story actually happened to me. I won't go into details now about the treatment that I was given, by the way....the person who use the so-called alternative treatments to heal or treat this condition was my grandmother.

The treatment lasted a few years and was somewhat painful, this I do remember even as a very, very young child. If you would like to hear more I will e-mail you. But due to the skepticism around here I refuse to put up for all to read. I hope you understand?

By the way, this is what started my journey into the martial arts, once things seemed to go right my family started me in martial arts at the age of 4 to strengthen my legs.

I don't expect as mentioned by me earlier, to change your mind, just maybe be a little more open-minded.

[Former castleva]

"Unfortunately, I don't have the documentation around this story since I haven't seen not one of my family members in almost 8 years nor do I have any contact with them. But that story actually happened to me. I won't go into details now about the treatment that I was given, by the way....the person who use the so-called alternative treatments to heal or treat this condition was my grandmother.

The treatment lasted a few years and was somewhat painful, this I do remember even as a very, very young child. If you would like to hear more I will e-mail you. But due to the skepticism around here I refuse to put up for all to read. I hope you understand? "

Let´s say I respect your privacy and it´s all up to you whether you publish it or not.I recommend though that you would not add the smiley since it makes it sound like you´re kidding,which we won´t know.
Some people do really recover from seemingly terminal diseases,some say it´s due to god(s) or something else,I realize the small possibility that in some rare cases they die (illness) on their own (as in cancer etc.)

"I don't expect as mentioned by me earlier, to change your mind, just maybe be a little more open-minded. "

It´s good to be open-minded but not to the point where your brains fall out.
I hope to be able to classify myself somewhere in the middle.

[azwingchun]

Let´s say I respect your privacy and it´s all up to you whether you publish it or not.I recommend though that you would not add the smiley since it makes it sound like you´re kidding,which we won´t know.

Sorry, if the smiley face caused some confusion or questions in my honest statement. It is just a friendly jesture.

Some people do really recover from seemingly terminal diseases,some say it´s due to god(s) or something else,I realize the small possibility that in some rare cases they die (illness) on their own (as in cancer etc.)

You can believe as you will, but as mentioned I lived it, and if you new the condition I was in you would have to base that on your own beliefs, but I was healed one way or the other. The interesting thing is you seem more willing to believe people overcome some devastating illness naturally then with God(s) or something else as you stated. This isn't unusual for skeptics though! If something outside of Western medicine seems to help, then they seem to believe it was a natural thing and would have happened anyway. I actually find it humorous. So, it seems even if I was able to retrieve my medical records around this illness, you still wouldn't believe my recovery had anything to do nothing more than 'it was bound to happen on it's own, even without the treatments administered'. That's ok......I'll say it again, I'm not here to ask you for your brains to pop out.

Here it is again....... !

[azwingchun]

Have you heard of Andrew Weil (I believe this is his name)? He is located just south of here in Tucson, Arizona. He has in my opinion from what I have read and seen on TV, done a great job of combining alternative medicine and Western medicine together. In fact he claims they compliment each other very well. This is a man who has spent time investigating and traveling the world over to study various alternative medicines and treatments. Some of which he states completely contradict Western medicine but work very well. If you have, I would like to know your opinion on him. Do you think he is a quack as you would say?

[Former castleva]

"You can believe as you will, but as mentioned I lived it, and if you new the condition I was in you would have to base that on your own beliefs, but I was healed one way or the other. The interesting thing is you seem more willing to believe people overcome some devastating illness naturally then with God(s) or something else as you stated. This isn't unusual for skeptics though! If something outside of Western medicine seems to help, then they seem to believe it was a natural thing and would have happened anyway. I actually find it humorous. So, it seems even if I was able to retrieve my medical records around this illness, you still wouldn't believe my recovery had anything to do nothing more than 'it was bound to happen on it's own, even without the treatments administered'. That's ok......I'll say it again, I'm not here to ask you for your brains to pop out."

Well you see when people say they were healed by god(s),a herbal supplement or blind faith for better,it may have helped them to fight their condition but the point is that to actually rely on that is not all that wise (as documented) and then they suffer,often.


"Have you heard of Andrew Weil (I believe this is his name)? He is located just south of here in Tucson, Arizona. He has in my opinion from what I have read and seen on TV, done a great job of combining alternative medicine and Western medicine together. In fact he claims they compliment each other very well. This is a man who has spent time investigating and traveling the world over to study various alternative medicines and treatments. Some of which he states completely contradict Western medicine but work very well. If you have, I would like to know your opinion on him. Do you think he is a quack as you would say? "

*gasp*
No,I have never heard of him,what follows is that I do not know about him.
I suggest you do not try this tactic on me.

[azwingchun]

I suggest you do not try this tactic on me.

No tactic intended. LOL!!!! Just curious, you might find him interesting. He shouldn't be too difficult to find with a search on the web.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Jack Squat
[B]Fragbot,

Acupuncture results due to only irritation to an area? How does that turn a breach baby around? Why doesn't the irritation of a pierced ear or the rubbing of too tight underwear do the same thing?

They might though it's not relevant to the purpose of this particular study since, presumably, these irritants would be reasonably equally distributed between the control and experimental groups.

In the abstract, they had women in the treated group and the control group count the number of times/day the baby moved (or something substantially similar). Overall, the women who'd been treated with moxibustion had 48 movements/day as opposed to 35 for those who weren't. Likewise, they had a lower rate of breach birth.

I'd argue this tells us very little about moxibustion per se, particularly in regards to the point near the big toe. If there were comparisons with other types of specific irritations (stimulations if you prefer), it'd be more definitive. In the past, I've been told spicy food leads to an active baby. That's why I chose jalapeno peppers as a specific example.

Was that a clear enough explanation?

Earlier in this thread, FC told a story about people measuring acupuncture's effects on rabbits. When they started to needle, whatever variable they were measuring went up. They took this as an indication of acupuncture's effect. However, the watcher then reached over and pinched the rabbit on the a** and, yep, the variable skyrocketed.

[Jack Squat]

Ok guys, I give up. You won't be swayed no matter what, so I'll stop trying. Honestly, what would it take for you to at least say "maybe"? No matter what study that you see, you will point out suspected flaws (why didn't the editors of JAMA toss out the study(s) is it wasn't valid? Maybe they don't know what they're doing?). I will leave you with a documented medical case study (yes I realize that one case study doesn't prove anything):

A 17 year old male was injured in a scuba accident. He busrts his sinuses in four places (bilateral frontal and ethmoid). He went to his PC (primary care) physician who referred him to a specialist (eyes, ears, nose, and throat specialist) to deal with the complications of the burst. After using imaging techniques, the specialists confirmed the bursts and simply told the patient "there is nothing I can do for your condition, except give you anti-biotics for the associated sinus infection. You will heal naturally in six months for the initial complaint, and it will take who-knows-how-long for the secondary complaint to heal. Come back and see me in 2 weeks so I can check on the infection". ( I don't want to waste my time typing details-email me if you want them).

The patient proceeded to see his acupuncturists, who treated him and by the time the patient went to the EENT (eyes, ears, nose, throat) specialist for his 2 week follow up, he was completely cured. This was quite shocking to the EENT, who stated that he had never seen anything like it.

Western-0, TCM-100

Is this anecdotal? Not if you are the 17 year old!!!!!

Jack

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Jack Squat
Ok guys, I give up. You won't be swayed no matter what, so I'll stop trying. Honestly, what would it take for you to at least say "maybe"? No matter what study that you see, you will point out suspected flaws (why didn't the editors of JAMA toss out the study(s) is it wasn't valid? Maybe they don't know what they're doing?). I will leave you with a documented medical case study (yes I realize that one case study doesn't prove anything):

Of course we'll point out suspected flaws. I would expect you to do the same. It's the only way to determine what the research is showing us.

One problem I've had throughout this discussion is some participants (FWIW, I don't include you in this category) apparent lack of anything resembling critical thinking skills. I have a vain hope part of this discussion (particularly, critiques of various research methodologies) might affect this.

A 17 year old male was injured in a scuba accident. He busrts his sinuses in four places (bilateral frontal and ethmoid). He went to his PC (primary care) physician who referred him to a specialist (eyes, ears, nose, and throat specialist) to deal with the complications of the burst. After using imaging techniques, the specialists confirmed the bursts and simply told the patient "there is nothing I can do for your condition, except give you anti-biotics for the associated sinus infection. You will heal naturally in six months for the initial complaint, and it will take who-knows-how-long for the secondary complaint to heal. Come back and see me in 2 weeks so I can check on the infection". ( I don't want to waste my time typing details-email me if you want them).

The patient proceeded to see his acupuncturists, who treated him and by the time the patient went to the EENT (eyes, ears, nose, throat) specialist for his 2 week follow up, he was completely cured. This was quite shocking to the EENT, who stated that he had never seen anything like it.

Would you expect this to be widely reproducible?

If it is, it's miracle medicine.

If not, it might be better viewed in the same light as spontaneous remission of cancer.

What will it take to say maybe? Well, I thought I already did for chronic pain. Anyhow, feel free to label me a chauvinist, but it wouldn't hurt to have a mechanism of healing grounded in something more measurable than qi.

Maybe you can explain something for me, if I were an advocate for TCM, I'd be clamoring for the most rigorous research into it available. Why? Because it would provide me immediate and long-term benefits. Instead, most advocates appear to revile the idea. Indulging me for a minute, why do you think this is?

[Jack Squat]

Fragbot,

I'll can't tell you why some TCM people don't really want research. I can only speak for myself. As I have stated before, there are some real yo-yo's out there (on both sides of the arguement). Maybe they feel that their crystals won't work if there are "negative vibrations" disrupting the "auras" (yes I have a sense of perspective, not to mention humor). Of course, TCM has nothing to do with crystals, but it's funny anyway.

I personally welcome research, and indeed, the NIH is finally funding research on a nice scale ($50 million in grant money is available in the US!). You can bet your swollen keyboard fingers that your's truly will attempt to get piece of that action. However, as I previously stated, proving TCM will be difficult, but not impossible, for research to substantiate (the old "different treatment for the same disease" thing......). Until now, it was EXTREMELY difficult to get anyone to fund any research on TCM. Who does the majority of funding for medical research? The pharmaceutical companies of course. They have no interest in funding TCM or anything other than chemical medicine. That is just common business sense.

One last thing- are you suggesting that the 17 year old in my story had accelerated healing capabilities? How can this be "spontaneous remission"? Using the same logic, can it be fair to say that perhaps his sinus infection would have (possibly) resolved itself anyway, even if he hadn't taken the antibiotics?

How about the 76 year old lady (again, I reference an event I personally witnessed) with a frozen shoulder so bad that she could not put a shirt on by herself. She had been to every MD, chiropractor, PT, etc under the sun with no results. This was a chronic condition that this woman had. ONE needle inserted into Stomach 38 and five minutes of lifting and thrusting and the woman had near complete mobility restored to her shoulder. This was ONE needle to a distal point on the leg. If this was self limiting, it would have already fixed itself by the time she came in the clinic. If it was a simple problem, some other medical professional would have fixed it. But acupuncturists are often "caregivers of last resort", meaning that after someone has tried everything else, with no results, they give AP a shot. In this case (again, I realize one case study doesn't PROVE anything), AP worked wonders. No surgery, no injections, no side effects. And it actually WORKED. Tell the 76 year old lady who left the clinic with tears (of joy) in her eyes, that AP doesn't work and she will definitely disagree. (FYI- this patient was so impressed that she now wanted the AP to "fix" every other imaginable thing wrong with her-the good news is that this allowed her case to have sufficient follow up-no the shoulder did not "re-freeze").

So this is what keeps me "pushing" TCM. I have seen (and personally felt) it work. After seeing that 76 year old lady, I knew that I would never view it in quite the same light. Maybe you could go spend some time in a clinic and interview the patients? (actually HIPPA laws wouldn't allow it without a ton of red tape-see research is thwarted again!).

Jack

[cha kuen]

I'll throw in my own experience.

I had a shoulder problem where the shoulder would kind of fall lower then where it's supposed to be. It didn't hurt but it was annoying because the shoulder wasnt' totally in the socket. I went to an MD that works with many athletes including the 49ers. He x-rayed it and said there's nothing wrong with it.

"Does it hurt?"
"Nope."
"Well, I've worked with a lot of football players and I've put back bones and many things worse than this. If it doesn't hurt then I wouldn't worry about it. If it hurts then come back to me."

Then I went to Hong Kong for other purposes and I ran into a TCM practiioner called a bonesetter. He looked at my shoulder and put some herbal plaster on it. I kept it on for 8 hours. When I went home I thought to myself

"How is this smelly herbal plaster gonna put my shoulder back in place? What the heck?"

I gave him the benefit of the doubt and went to see him the next day. He took off the herbal plaster, cleaned my skin wiht some alcohol. THen he put a finger under my arm pit of that shoulder and just pushed upward, that looks like a chiropractic adjustment. Then I looked at my shoulder and it stayed in place! He told me that it's back in place but the ligaments are still weak and only time will heal the ligaments. He told me not to go any crazy movements w/ my shoulder until it is better.

I'd liek to hear your placebo affect on that one.

Success story #2

My low back pain. Went to this other MD and he signed me up for physical therapy. I went to the therapy and learned a variety of stretches and how to strengthen my abs. I went home and did them all the time. My back didnt' get better but I fetl my back more stretched and my abs stronger.

WHen I was in HK, same time frame as above, i went to see the same bonesetter and he put the same herbs on me. These herbs are a mixture of 20 different herbs, cooked on a stove to a hot pasty application. After placing it on my back a few days in a row, my back got a lot better. I would say about 70%. My range of motion was better, the muscles were less tense. The rest of the way would have to be me doing some stretching and walking excercises that he recommended.

blah blah blah, TCM is exploding worldwide and no one can stop us!. =]

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Jack Squat
I'll can't tell you why some TCM people don't really want research. I can only speak for myself. As I have stated before, there are some real yo-yo's out there (on both sides of the arguement). Maybe they feel that their crystals won't work if there are "negative vibrations" disrupting the "auras" (yes I have a sense of perspective, not to mention humor). Of course, TCM has nothing to do with crystals, but it's funny anyway.

I'd assert it's a standard negative response anyone has when their belief system is challenged. From their perspective, why research what already works?

Likewise, I'd also assert people who are emotionally invested in alternative medicine tend towards a higher suspicion of establishment anything. Therefore, they'll view (wrongly, IMO) attempts at quantifying its results with societally-accepted methods as a threat to it.

However, as I previously stated, proving TCM will be difficult, but not impossible, for research to substantiate (the old "different treatment for the same disease" thing......). Until now, it was EXTREMELY difficult to get anyone to fund any research on TCM.

Who does the majority of funding for medical research? The pharmaceutical companies of course. They have no interest in funding TCM or anything other than chemical medicine. That is just common business sense.

I've seen this argument numerous times. With herbs at least, I've never found it compelling. To use a specific example, let's play the following mind experiment:

Assumption: some magical compilation of dit da jow speeds injury healing by factor mumble

1) Is there a significant market for this sort of thing?
2) Could modern production techniques replicate a recipe?
3) Is there intellectual property protection available?

My answers: obviously (particularly large if it's non-prescription), probably, and definitely (via patenting of production techniques and well-kept trade secrets).

Furthermore, aspirin is widely researched for various cardiovascular issues and it's essentially free.

One last thing- are you suggesting that the 17 year old in my story had accelerated healing capabilities? How can this be "spontaneous remission"? Using the same logic, can it be fair to say that perhaps his sinus infection would have (possibly) resolved itself anyway, even if he hadn't taken the antibiotics?

First off, I don't doubt his sinus infection would've gone away w/o antibiotics.

Accelerated healing capabilities? I hadn't thought of it that way, but that's a fair representation. More generally, I was pointing out that sometimes people get better in unexplained dramatic ways. Likewise, I had hoped to point out that some level of reproducibility is especially important.

How about the 76 year old lady (again, I reference an event I personally witnessed) with a frozen shoulder so bad that she could not put a shirt on by herself. She had been to every MD, chiropractor, PT, etc under the sun with no results. This was a chronic condition that this woman had. ONE needle inserted into Stomach 38 and five minutes of lifting and thrusting and the woman had near complete mobility restored to her shoulder. This was ONE needle to a distal point on the leg. If this was self limiting, it would have already fixed itself by the time she came in the clinic. If it was a simple problem, some other medical professional would have fixed it. But acupuncturists are often "caregivers of last resort", meaning that after someone has tried everything else, with no results, they give AP a shot. In this case (again, I realize one case study doesn't PROVE anything), AP worked wonders. No surgery, no injections, no side effects. And it actually WORKED. Tell the 76 year old lady who left the clinic with tears (of joy) in her eyes, that AP doesn't work and she will definitely disagree. (FYI- this patient was so impressed that she now wanted the AP to "fix" every other imaginable thing wrong with her-the good news is that this allowed her case to have sufficient follow up-no the shoulder did not "re-freeze").

Not that I'm exactly sure what a frozen shoulder is, but I'm glad for her.

Do you think this would be the likely outcome of most patients who visit an acupuncturist complaining of a frozen shoulder?

Maybe you could go spend some time in a clinic and interview the patients? (actually HIPPA laws wouldn't allow it without a ton of red tape-see research is thwarted again!).

*chuckle* I test software for a living. I'm interested in medicine as a periodic consumer plus the fact that it's just plain fascinating. BTW: several years ago, I was quite interested in TCM as well (I investigated enrolling in a TCM program), but found most of its adherents too wide-eyed and loopy for my taste. In my experience, they're often quite willing to notice the problems with Western medicine while being remarkably subservient to their field's own dogma.

One thing I've always like about most medical research I've read is its probabilities. To use myself as a specific example, I take 325mg of uncoated aspirin/day. I appreciate the fact that I can see the probability of reducing my risk of heart attack and stroke (FWIW, I believe garlic has some of this research as well).