Fook Sao

[marcelino31]

Some lineages, like TWC, perform a fook sao like the way a dog holds their paws - this as opposed to the more usual flat fooksao where the the blade of the hand is held parallel to the ground. Any benefits or reason for differences in the position of the fook?

[anerlich]

There are of course arguments for doing it both ways, but IMO this way allows a slightly tighter mechanical lock on the opp's arm, and consciously keeping the elbow in and the energy in a front/back up/down plane rather than intoducing a sideways aspect.

Not to say the other way doesn't have its own advantages.

For someone who gave up TWC for another lineage, you sure seem preoccupied with it ....

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by marcelino31
Some lineages, like TWC, perform a fook sao like the way a dog holds their paws - this as opposed to the more usual flat fooksao where the the blade of the hand is held parallel to the ground. Any benefits or reason for differences in the position of the fook?

Hi Marcelino,

For purposes of strengthening the wrists, my lineage bends the Fuk Sao with the hand bent back at the wrist in the execution of Sil Nim Tao. Technically, this is not a Fuk Sao as you have realized. The proper Fuk Sao for us is relaxed but straight at the wrist. In application, the wrist is kept so relaxed that it's Ok to let it wrap around the opponent's arm when absorbing his forward arm movement.

Lineage:
YM > Leung Sheung > Ken Chung = Ben Der

Regards,

[Wingman]

Each type of fook sao has its strengths and weaknesses.

Bent wrist fook sao:
Advantage - the elbow is closer to your centerline. Good for defense of the inner gate or if your opponent's hand is in the "inside" of your forearm.

Disadvantage - not as "offensive" as the straight wrist fook sao.

Straight wrist fook sao:
Advantage - more "offensive" than bent wrist fook sao for the following reasons:
1. it has a longer reach than bent wrist fook sao.
2. since the fingers are pointing towards the opponent, it can be easily converted to a strike.

Disadvantage - the elbow is not as close to your centerline as bent wrist fook sao. If you are not careful, the elbow may even stick out and it could be a hole for your opponent to exploit.

We use both in application. But when performing SLT, the bent wrist fook sao is used.

[sel]

i think bending the wrist puts tension into the forearm, which in turn puts tension into the shoulder which then affects the stance.
i'm taught to have a relaxed wrist, so it is bent, but not as an effort. it just hangs naturally. this encourages relaxation through to the shoulders and into the stance.

[tparkerkfo]

I am not sure why different people do it different and can only pass on a few words about the fuk sau. Wong Sheung Leung seemed to beleive that the bent wrist fook sau was the way to go. At least this is what I picked up from some of his students and from his video. The idea I heard was it is easier to hit from as the hand is halfway in position. I am not sure I agree with that idea, but who am I to argue with WSL? But then, I am not sure if those were actually his words or not. The bent fook sau seems to have a different feel in it than the other. I suppose you can argue about its feel and forwardness.

I have personally practiced the flatter fook sau. As John mentioned, the flat fook sau is in application and the bent is in the forms. The forms are not pure application and many things are done different in them. The flat fook sau has an impressive structure in itself. There are times when the tan and fook can be interchanged in many respects, however usually one may be better for a given situation structurally. I was taught that fook sau offers many advantages over tan sau. Also, the flat tan sau offers a bit better sensitivity because the underside of the forarm and the palm, both being the most sensitive part of the arm, are in contact with the opponents bridge. The bent fook sau places the side of the arm in contact.

Obviously my thoughts are one sided to what I studied. I don't think either are supperior, just different. Kind of like blood red and brick red. Similar, but different. You probably don't want to substitute one for the other. Each works in their context.

Just some thoughts
Tom
________
Alberto Massimino

[anerlich]

The original question concerned the rotational orientation of the fuk sao, not whether the wrist was bent, but what the heck...

IMHO Tom is correct - good SLT requires full, relaxed movement at the wrist, and full manipulation of it during the form.

I can bend my wrist without tensing it - If anything, I think it takes more tension to keep it (perfectly) straight. I find I naturally have a slight bend in the wrist when relaxed in fuk sao position, and I only fully flex it in SLT while performing huen saos, tarn saos, jut saos and the like.

[mun hung]

IMHO - it is the elbow that is most important in fook sau and not the hand.

[kj]

Enjoying everyone's comments on this question.

Originally posted by Wingman
Straight wrist fook sao:<snip>
Disadvantage - the elbow is not as close to your centerline as bent wrist fook sao. If you are not careful, the elbow may even stick out and it could be a hole for your opponent to exploit. [/B]

Just a FWIW on this. I agree with the "tendency" for the elbow to want to fly out with the flat fook sau, especially in novice stages of training. In our way of training, we do prefer the flat position in application, and with sufficient practice, the elbow position ceases to compromise itself. I agree with your choice of "careful" as the operative word.

I agree with John and Tom about our preference and reasoning for the flat fook sau. Additionally, by having primarily the soft part of the forearm in contact (rather than the bone edge), it increases the challenge for the opponent to perceive and control our movement; some may not even feel threatened by it. This is in part where they perceive that "soft" feeling, which they may later agree is more like "iron wrapped in cotton."

Others MMV.

BTW, it's neat to note that a dog's "fook sau elbow" is naturally down, since they don't have the shoulder rotation required to let it fly out. I don't know why I that fact appeals to me so much, but it does, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[vingtsunstudent]

concerning the flat or hooked wrist, i have heard that in the old days everyone practiced it with the wrist straight, the reason the bent wrist came about was because with a straight one to many were placing to much emphasis on the wrist to control the movement rather than the elbow and thus by bending the wrist you can now focus on the correct way to do the movement without the wrist becoming involved.

this may be just a story made up to play with me but it is one i find a great deal of truth in.

odviously some are going to do the movement correctly with the wrist straight but having had to teach myself i have noticed that by bending the wrist it does make it easier for beginner to understand the movement as it should be exercuted.

what do you all think?

vts

[marcelino31]

One thing that I have observed is that the way Fook Sao is trained in SLT and Chi Sao is very rarely used in a real fight.

The concept of Fook Sao extends to other motions such as Jut, Huen, and gan which seem to be more used in application.

I once saw a photo of samuel kwook doing a fook sao defense against a strike but it doesn't seem logical to apply fook that way.

What do you guys think.

[WCis4me]

anerlich wrote:

I can bend my wrist without tensing it - If anything, I think it takes more tension to keep it (perfectly) straight. I find I naturally have a slight bend in the wrist when relaxed in fuk sao position, and I only fully flex it in SLT while performing huen saos, tarn saos, jut saos and the like.

>I agree. Letting it bend in a relaxed fashion feels more natural.

mun hung wrote:

IMHO - it is the elbow that is most important in fook sau and not the hand.

>I agree with this as well, although the hand is the fook and is important, if your elbow is not placed correctly your hand will not be either.

Kj wrote:

I agree with the "tendency" for the elbow to want to fly out with the flat fook sau, especially in novice stages of training.

>this is something that I struggle with that is probably why I like the bent. Shoulders staying in place is something else that seems like it will always be a work in progress for me I have to really think about that stuff still. All the senior practictioners I see seem to do it effortlessly so I guess it will come in time. It really was easier being a critical observer

vingtsunstudent wrote:

i have noticed that by bending the wrist it does make it easier for beginner to understand the movement as it should be exercuted.

>I totally agree as a fellow beginner.

[Lindley]

Marcelino31,

I believe Yip Man played the bent wrist (in Chi Sao) because of his height. The bent Tan Sao as well. Most were taller than he was. It is very useful for the size handicap as you tend to draw your opponent to play down, not making use of his height advantage. Keep in mind that many students may have played it this way "because Yip Man played it this way - it must be right...".

Initially, the Siu Nim Tao should be practiced with the intent of understanding the nature of the Fuk Sao, which is controlling hand. The bent wrist is very good for developing strength in the wrist and forearm. One of my famous Si-Boks said "play the fuk sao until you can see the blood in the wrist..." This is one way to play, to develope those strengths. The playing the wrist bent, as was well mentioned, can lead to a greater understanding of techniques like jut and huen sao.

One difference between the two ways of playing Fuk Sao that has not been mentioned is the area of contact. The more area of contact, the greater you gain in sensitivity (helping reduce reaction time). The bent wrist gives less contact area than the flat wrist.

Put both methods in "the laboratory" and discover for yourself what the pros and cons are for each method.

Good Luck in your Kung Fu!

[PaulH]

One can look at Fook Sau as a tool of control and feelings. In SLT one should do the fook with the feeling of trying to control the resisting forward tan sau. If your hand is limp, you cannot duplicate that resisting experience, while if you bend your wrist, you will re-create a certain tension along the wrist and forearm. This is important for the training of "Receive what comes" . In a way, the fook is a yin and yang hand as it can generate different kind of tension. It can be soft as water or hard like a steel bar matching its receiving end. It can glue or diffuse force depending on how good you are at sensitivity and how much control you have on the tension of your own fook hand.

Regards,

[anerlich]

I agree with mun hung that elbow position is paramount. If your elbow position is not correct, particularly with fuk sao, good chi sao is impossible. If the guy can strike you directly without having to move your fuk sao elbow out of the path, the drill falls apart.

I also agree with Lindley; you want contact sensitivity to movement in as many directions as possible; bending the wrist over the arm may improve this.

Interesting story, vts.