Fook Sao

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Lindley
<snip>... between the two ways of playing Fuk Sao that has not been mentioned is the area of contact. The more area of contact, the greater you gain in sensitivity (helping reduce reaction time). The bent wrist gives less contact area than the flat wrist...<snip>

Isn't it the other way around? Bent wrist fook sao has MORE contact area than straight/flat wrist fook sao.

[anerlich]

Jeez Wingman, I shoulda read more closely. You are correct.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi All,

A couple commentsm

anerlich,
Thanks for the words. I always hope I am not way off base. We don't do the fook say perfectly straight, and I would agree that perhaps that would focus too much tension in the hand. We just lay it there. It actually probably bends a few degrees. The hand is usually relaxed.

KJ,

Whew!!! I guess I passed this one. LOL. It is hard to say anything when you have "Quality Control" looking over your shoulder. LOL. Actually, much of my info on Fook Sau actually comes from my time with Eddie rather than Ken. I was sure I would get some corrections.

Ving Tsun Student,
Interesting story. Not sure if I buy it, but who knows. Leung Sheung lineage advocates it and he was early. I am not sure about TST or Lok Yiu. Would be interesting to see. WSL was also considered early, though my information on him shows him favoring the bent fook sau. Maybe he learned it originally, or maybe he modified it as Yip Man did latter. I would have to pull out my book, but I think the Futsan people do it with a bent wrist, atleast in the forms.

marcelino31,
I think it depends on a lot of factors. WSL seemed to favor it in his video, which wasn't actually done by him. But his stuff shows a bent fook sau. I don't know what he really did in his real fights, but if your bridging, then you should use fook sau when it is appropriate. My experienece shows that fook sau is used all the time in application, though we use the flat one.

Lindley,

Why do you say what Yip Man did or didn't do? I wasn't aware of their being any footage, though I think there are a few pictures. It would be interesting. I think Yip Man did many things over his time. Hands probably melted into eachother, I would imagine as he could probably do what he wanted. I don't think people like Leung Sheung made up the flat fook sau, so I would think that Yip Man himself did it and taught it. Perhaps he changed is practice of the fook sau, or maybe he deceived some students, or maybe there wasn't much distinction to him, or maybe there are really two fooks saus, tan saus, stances, etc. LOL.

Wingman and anerlich,
I think the flat fook sau has more surface area and a more sensitive part of the arm in contact. Though I am not a practicioner of the bent fook sau so I could be misjudging it. From my understanding, which came partly from WSL's video and from a seminar of Michael Lousion (WSL Lineage), the bent fook sau is on the pinky side of the arm, forgot my anatomy lessons. This allows a much less sensitive portion of the arm to be in contact, and an area with a large radius that reduces surface area. The flat fook sau as I do it lays the inside of the arm ontop of the opponents arm, along with the palm. This gives you the flater radius of the inside of the arm, the palm, and the fingers all feeling the opponent. Now, I am not arguing that sensitivity plays a signigicant role in the bent fook sau, so it may not be an issue. But the flat fook sau is concerned with maintaining that sensitivity. Of course, I am probably not even close in my understaning of the bent fook sau.

Tom
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[mun hung]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel that my arm is much more relaxed and more sensitive with my hand bent to the side instead of downwards like a dog's paw. I also feel that my elbow (which is the real controling factor in fook sau) covers my center better without as much effort. I was taught applications (fighting not chi-sau) with the very same positioning.

We all play the SNT in different ways and for different reasons.

Do you play the fook sau the exact same way both times?

Why? .....or why not?

[Mr Punch]

Wingman: excellent analysis.

VTS: nice to see you, haven't been around much recently have you? Or was that me?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by mun hung
Maybe it's just me, but I feel that my arm is much more relaxed and more sensitive with my hand bent to the side instead of downwards like a dog's paw....

The way I perform fook sao in SLT, the hand is bent to the side. The tip of thumb is positioned between the middle finger and the ring finger... and of course, the bent wrist is relaxed not tensed.

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
...the bent fook sau is on the pinky side of the arm, forgot my anatomy lessons....

What is a pinky? As I understand it, it is one of the fingers. I'm not sure... but I think it is the small finger. I also forgot my anatomy lessons.

[WCis4me]

tparkerkfo wrote:

Why do you say what Yip Man did or didn't do? I wasn't aware of their being any footage, though I think there are a few pictures.

Yes, actually there is video footage to verify what Lindley was saying, I have seen it. It is Yip Man doing the complete SLT form. I have seen him in a Chi Sao form as well (although it slips my mind if that was video or stills). His wrist is bent (relaxed) in all.
It seems there is quite a bit of 'lost footage' that would probably quell a great deal of the speculation on several subjects, although not all of them I am sure . As for the question as to why it isn't released publicly, only the owners of the footage can answer that if they choose.

[kj]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
KJ,

Whew!!! I guess I passed this one. LOL. It is hard to say anything when you have "Quality Control" looking over your shoulder. LOL. Actually, much of my info on Fook Sau actually comes from my time with Eddie rather than Ken. I was sure I would get some corrections.

Ouch. <suddenly feeling somewhat autocratic and overbearing>
Note to self …

Regards,
- kj

[Lindley]

As mentioned in my post, the play of bent vs flat (or less bent) should be experimented by the practicioner. Each one does not violate the principles of the system. As Yip Man was smaller, he could utilize the "hooking" of the bent position to his advantage. It is quite reasonable to assume he knew of the flat or less bent technique but, as Sigung Moy Yat has mentioned, some techniques used by bigger Wing Chun guys (than Yip Man) would not work for his body type logically (i.e. like a standard tan sao). Larger Wing Chun guys had to adjust to accomplish the same result.

Techniques are meaningless without a system to support it.

Good luck with your kung fu!

[TjD]

do any of you have fook saus in your biu jee form? if so is the wrist bent inwards or relaxed like a dog?

[dzu]

From a technical standpoint - I use the 'flat' fook sao with a relaxed hand. There is no tension in the fingers, so the hand is almost cupped while doing the form in mid-air. In chi sao, the hand continues to stay relaxed, but will open up slightly due to the presence of my partner's tan sao. Eblow is down and finds the best spot to create a connection. Intention is forward yet seeking/sensing openings in my partner's structure.

I believe the 'hooked' fook sao is called Kau Sao (capturing/detaining) in my lineage.

From an application perspective - I find the transitions from Fook to Chum, Jut, Gum, Pak etc. easier with a 'flat' fook sao only because the the hand is in a more neutral position and doesn't have to be 'unhooked' first.

From a conceptual perspective - Fook implies subduing, controlling, and smothering so I would consider kau sao as a subset of the Fook Sao hierarchical tree. I would also group Chum, Jut, Gum, On, Pak, Lop etc. as subsets also. Essentially, fook sao is the 'seed' that these other bridges come from.

Dzu

[fa_jing]

"Essentially, fook sao is the 'seed' that these other bridges come from."

Agree with that one. In application, while sparring but not too intensely, I literally use it to ride my opponent's bridge, as sort of a "listener"

In intense sparring I am usually too busy punching, LOL.

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
Hi All,

Why do you say what Yip Man did or didn't do? I wasn't aware of their being any footage, though I think there are a few pictures. It would be interesting. I think Yip Man did many things over his time. Hands probably melted into eachother, I would imagine as he could probably do what he wanted. I don't think people like Leung Sheung made up the flat fook sau, so I would think that Yip Man himself did it and taught it. Perhaps he changed is practice of the fook sau, or maybe he deceived some students, or maybe there wasn't much distinction to him, or maybe there are really two fooks saus, tan saus, stances, etc. LOL.


Tom

Hi tom, I have video footage of Yip Man doing SLT and his fook sao is flat and relaxed not turned in and tensed..

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by TjD
do any of you have fook saus in your biu jee form? if so is the wrist bent inwards or relaxed like a dog?

Yes there is a fook sao with trin ma in the jeet sao section of my biu jee form. The fook starts out flat and then performs a heun sao followed by chang cheung

[tparkerkfo]

Hi KJ,
Sorry, I should stay away from humor. Not my strong suit. LOL.

marcelino31,

Yes I have seen some of the Yip Man footage. Mostly the SLT form. There ofcourse is some footage of the other forms, dummy, and pole. But someone made a comment about fuk sau in application and I don't think we have any thing to base that on except stories from others who were there 30-40 years ago. I don't think there is any video of Chi Sau, or atleast I have never heard any one speak of it. There are a couple of photos with Bruce Lee doing Chi Sau with Yip Man. However, They are static pictures and hard to see what is really going on.

Tom
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