Is this a real challenge to Shaloin-Do from the Shaolin temple?

[HuangKaiVun]

Just saw the "Northern Shaolin Tiger" response by reemul on the other thread. Thanks!

Is this style related to the one I've seen on the bookshelves?

My other questions still stand.

[joedoe]

Many of the masters of the original Shaolin arts were invited to bring the art back to China. The original arts are making their way back to Shaolin. Just because they perform wushu for the crowds does not mean that they do not learn the old arts.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[reemul]

To HuangKaiVun: No time now, I'll try and answer some of your questions later this week email me.

[HuangKaiVun]

Cool.

[reemul]

Our master was sought after way back when they were first "rebuilding the temple" needless the say he didnt go back. We are pretty much all thats left of our system. So the chances of the temple getting this system back is unlikely.

[Royal Dragon]

Why don't you guys go back to Shaolin and help restore what was lost? It seems that instead of condemming the Temple, why don't you help it recover? That makes the most sense to me.


Besides, I dought they don't teach entire systems. I'm willing to bet that they infact DO train, practice and teach entire systems to those looking to learn. Remember, often entire systems ARE contained in a single form, and the rest of those forms we normally see are just choragraphed off the main one in order to aid in progressive teaching of the system anyway.

Somehow, I don't see true Shaolin Kung Fu being dead there. ESPECIALLY if they are only money motivated. From a purely Money oriented perspective, I think Traditional traing would be a must!! I'm sure modern Wushu sells, but for those persuing careers in the arts Traditional training is the only way to go (and every one knows it), and the demamd alone would dictate it's existance at Shaolin, even if it had to be re-introduced by outside masters, such as your own.

Just a thought,

Royal Dragon


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[mortal]

reemul
I really enjoy your posts you tell it like it is and thats cool. I have a question.
How do you know for a fact that there is no real shaolin kung fu at the temple? Were you there during the cultural revolution? Can I read this info somewhere? I am interested in the pursuit of real kung fu and I got to tell you Yan ming and Hengxin sure have me fooled. To be honest I have never seen anyone that comes close to their kung fu or their conditioning. If a master does exist that is better I would love to here about where he is located so I can move there. I look forward to your response.

[sean_stonehart]

Sorry to chime in so late on this, but I was at Shaolin in June with GM The' & everybody there was nothing but nice. We spent a day & a half there, met with Yong Xin & even traded forms with several guys at the mouth of Damo's cave on Songshan. Everybody there was nothing but very nice.

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats.

-- H.L. Mencken

[reemul]

Take a look around.

The animal systems are not summed up in one form. Forms carry with them each, different theory and applications and focus.
Before kungfu was popularized by Bruce Lee, the masters were here and training only family members for the most part. The real masters were not in the habit of Pimping out their art/lifestyle. What brought kungfu out into the mainstream were karate schools such as SD claiming to be Shaolin or kungfu in general, to capitalize off the surge of interrest Bruce Lee brought to Kungfu. But even still the masters were not willing to share their way of life to just anyone. Even when they were in China the masters did open the gates to just anyone. Thats were stories of waiting for days in the hope that someone would let you in. This was a test. This showed a persons willingness and drive to commit to something. Such a person would not shall we say, prove to be a slacker(2day a week pracitioner, makes up excuses to not workout.) The problem here in america not everyone is that dedicated. When I meet someone and the subject of MA comes up and they say "I take this or that" or "I'm a blackbelt in this" in my head I'm thinking :rolleyes:. You see the masters look for people willing to dedicate their lives to the study. Americans just want a cool patch or belt to show off.

The latest propaganda the temple passively pushes is that a form or two is representative of a system. NOT!! You'll notice, looking outside of China you see schools that specialize in a particular animal system. This supports my possition of Shaolin master exodus from China. In speaking with people from who have gone to the temple they try to say these systems are provided in one or two forms, thats odd because prior to the masters leaving China each animal system was said to comprise a lifetime of material and this view is supported in the schools outside the China. Many of the Northern Animal masters were put on a hit list and marked for execution by the communist government,which is what sparked the masters exodus from China. Our masters Grandfather(head of the Northern Shaolin Tiger family)was one of them. Unfortunately a lot of the animal systems have died off. Ours would have to if not for our masters decision to pass on the knowledge.
You see His grandfather and father did not open a kungfu school, they just passed it on within the family. Out of our masters benevolence he chose to pass it to my instructor, haveing no child of his own. From what I hear it was a hard decisions for him. Interrestingly enough,In choosing to pass on his knowledge our master did not charge a fee.

[This message was edited by reemul on 08-29-01 at 08:48 PM.]

[HuangKaiVun]

reemul, what will you gain by showing the world that you have the real Shaolin kung fu and the "Neo Temple" (as well as the black belts and Bruce Lee types) does not?

According to your posts, the reputation of your style is secure. So is your lineage and its practitioners. You have nothing to gain by badmouthing Shaolin and its proponents.

Eevn if you prove to the entire world that Shaolin and Shaolin-Do are completely fake, how will that change your life for the better?

[Nexus]

HuangKaiVun has made a really good point IMO reemul. What have you to gain from all of this anyways? It seems like there is something deeper that is causing you to have the issues with the Shaolin rather then just letting it be. It's not as if because we disagree that Scientology is effective, we make it our goal to actively diss scientology and try to break down scientologists. We just let them be, and if they find out for themselves then great. It seems as if you have some searching to do but I doubt you will be honest with yourself although mostly you seem to be pretty honest with us.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[r.(shaolin)]

The point is one of mis-representation not necessarily one of validity or even effectiveness.
If an individual wants to master any skill, or any subject for that matter, there is a 10,000 hr. rule.
This means 60 hours per week for about three and a half years ( or 30 hs. per week for 7 years etc. and course it doesn't mean you'll make it : - ) There is an obligation we have to individuals who wish to master a traditional Shaolin martial art and not a recent mix / compilation.
Being mislead or tricked i nto investing this kind of time into something that is not what its made out to be, it is simply unjust. Although I've stated it else where, that's my problem with PRC Shaolin as well.l

[danny from miami]

Eevn if you prove to the entire world that Shaolin and Shaolin-Do are completely fake, how will that change your life for the better?

- that isnt the point. no one cares how it will change their life. the guy just wants to show people the truth

[Silumkid]

Sorry Nexus, but I must disagree with you a little...I do everything I can to make people aware of how the Church of Scientology is based on fiction, and nonsense. Scientology is evil and must be stopped. Much like the Christians of days gone by, Scientology has killed in the name of their so-called religion. Check out www.xenu.net to get the full picture of these "people". Evil must be destroyed!

Reemul, I also must take issue with your position that a style that has few forms cannot be a "real" style or a "full" style. As I am sure you may be familiar, Wing Chun has only three hand forms but is considered a complete art. Just ask any of the Wing Chunners here.

Also, if I am not mistaken, some Tai Chi styles have one form. No one has ever accused Tai Chi (taught correctly) of being incomplete either. I can't remember the person's name but there is a man who was rumored to practice only three POSTURES of Tai Chi was extremely powerful.

Don't get me wrong, I would never hand a blind man an egg and tell him it was an orange...but I also wouldn't tell him he needs a dozen eggs when he only needs one.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[mortal]

Reemul
A quick point. I agree one form does not constitute a style. Shaolin is a mix of all styles. A little of each. They all have something to share. From what I have seen the shaolin animal forms are different from the wushu animals. Other styles besides shaolin have all the animals in them. Hsing i has 12 or something. Shaolin in as a whole wasn't invented by Tamo. From what I heard he did invent the 5 animal play and the lohan forms besides the chi gung stuff. Lohan and animals have been expanded and changed ever since. Kung fu was at practiced at temples all over China. The Shaolin temple invited all the famous martial artists in asia to come and train for four year periods. Masters from japan trained there as well. That way the monks could pick and chose what they liked from all the different styles. Many masters just focused on one style while others trained in many. Monks it seemed trained in a little bit of all. That is what Shi Yan Ming told me.

I know what you mean about people that only train twice a week. Some people have jobs that take time and energy away from training. I think it is more about quality not quantity anyway. For example I train 3 times a week. My legs are sore constantly from pushing myself as hard as I can for three hours at a shot. Even if I had the time I wouldn't train too much more.

I can see what your saying about Shaolin Do not being chinese. On the site I saw the word kata. They also talk of learning these short forms. i have never seen them but judging by the names they sound like movements or peices of forms instead of the whole thing. I am not attacking or taking sides but I could see questioning something like that. It took me two years to learn three forms at my school. Another thing i found interesting was they mention about how over time people will find it easier to remember their forms. Now I admit I am a burn out on some level but I couldn't forget my kung fu if I tryed. Forgetting form is unheard of were I train. Isn't the do in shaolin-do Japanese? I mean no harm just asking.