Aikido and Internal Arts

[StickyHands]

In a real fight scenario, who would prevail the most? An Aikido-ka or an internalist? Let say if they both have similar number years of training.... let say 15, hmmm, or some good number? I know I know styles and it's comparisons do not matter and rather blunt of me to ask it, and I know their potentials are inconceivable. AND I know, ultimately, Aikido is from Aiki-jujutsu, which is from Daito-ryu Jujutsu, and Jujutsu is from ancient chinese Chin Na, and kung fu also has Chin Na. But without verbal bashing and being too criticial, please post if you can make cogent, articulate argument. Thank you. Would you consider Aikido internal or external art?

[Former castleva]

Aikido is internal by definition,just less "chiisy" and in differing manner than Chinese arts imo.
I have nothing else to say except that to claim jujutsu descends from Chinese methods is somewhat questionable,if not highly.

[Kumkuat]

There was a skirmish between Wang Shu Jin and Chiba Kazuo. There are 2 versions of the story. Chiba Kazuo's version and the other version is by another person. So I will copy and paste the two versions.

Chiba's versions.

### Excerpt of interview with Chiba Kazuo, 8th-dan Aikido instructor ###

Q: With friends like that who needs
enemies! As we are talking about
challenges would you mind telling
me about your confrontation with Mr
Wang, the Tai Chi Master from China?

Chiba: Who told you about this . . . Mr Cottier perhaps?

Q: Perhaps I'd better not tell . . .

Chiba: (Laughter) O.K. then. I was in a big demonstration of Martial Arts in Tokyo in the early 1960's, and Tai Chi Chuan was being shown by Mr Wang. He was from Taiwan and he was very big indeed. He became quite famous later in Japan. Well, at the end of his display he had a number of Karateka line up in front of
him, and each of them punched him in the belly. It had no effect on him.

I was not impressed. I would have done something else (Sensei demonstrated a groin kick and face punch whilst saying this). So, anyway two of my private students were also studying Tai Chi under Mr Wang, and they were very impressed with him.

They invited me to come along and see him. Eventually I accepted and went to watch his class. At the dojo my students introduced us, and he politely asked me to show some Aikido. Even though his words were warm it was still a challenge! Well, we faced each other, and Master Wang made something like Sumo posture with his hands outstretched. I stood and waited for an opening. This went on for some minutes until he moved forward to push me. So I met him, made Tai Sabaki (body evasion) and took his wrist with Kote Gaeshi, (wrist crush/reversal) . . . his wrist made a loud snapping noise as I applied it. Even though I applied Kote Gaeshi strongly and injured him, he did not go down. MasterWang snatched his wrist from me, and challenged me immediately. So this time he pushed me with both hands in the belly, and threw me quite a distance across the room. I landed, but I also did not go down. It was an amazing throw. My students then came between us, and that was that.

### End excerpt ###



And the other version from Mike Sigman.




I will quote the story that Terry Dobson told me, which was corroborated at another time by Donn Draeger. I also heard Terry tell this story again in a group with Mitsugi Saotome present, who amidst laughter chimed in and agreed. I didn't know that Ken Cottier was present but he was also part of the group.

First, some context. Wang Shu Chin, for those who don't know, was primarily a Pa Kua, Hsing I teacher, who also trained many years in I Ch'uan. He was a massive man, fat over heavy muscle, in his prime, about 5'6" and about 260 lb, I'd guess. He also did t'ai chi, the syncretic form created by Chen Pan Ling, which he did in a very different manner from Chen (this form is, these days, often called the Guo Shu form, the "national form" of Taiwan). Wang was the head of a neo-Taoist sect, which strove to harmonize the major religions of the world.

As always, there are debates about how strong he really was, I studied with him only two months when he was months away from death from melanoma. I witnessed him knock over a very muscular kyoshinkai champion with a side-step and belly blow, but that was a a controlled situation, not free-style. Still, really impressive power, despite his illness. For me, one of the most interesting measurements of his "power" was that when I travelled in Taiwan, every teacher who was talking big and trying to impress with his credentials claimed to have beaten Wang.

Anyway, Wang originally came over to Japan in the '60's, first to teach his son-in-law, who had married his adopted daughter. Among the first to study with him was Sato Kimbei. Sato, among koryu circles, was generally considered a joke. He collected scrolls and licenses. Otsubo sensei, of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, told in a very public forum, of Sato apporoaching him, asking how long it would take to get a menkyo kaiden and when Otsubo was noncommittal, trying to bargain with him. Otsubo allowed him to train with him and w/in two months, Sato was nowhere to be found, but years later, he was claiming licensure in the school. Anyway, Sato hooked up with Wang for some years, and this did give him legitimate claim to being one of the "pioneers" of Japanese t'ai chi.

Wang used to ask a former student of Sato's to demonstrate what Sato taught, and he and his son-in-law would pick it apart, laughing and asking him to repeat cerain moves over and over. I also happened to be present at a workshop when the head of the Bejing wushu society, (forgot his name - the guy who put together the 48 movement syncretic t'ai chi form) and another practitioner, who has won the Yang t'ai chi competition several years running and Sato came up and told them that they weren't allowed to teach because they hadn't asked his permission, and they looked at him like you look at a deranged street person asking to borrow your briefcase, and walked away shaking their heads. Sato did nothing, and left with his wife shortly after. Sato is currently claimed as a senior infuence on the Genbukan and Tanemura - - -Oh well.

Wang started teaching in the grounds of Meiji shrine, and somewhere along the line a group of non-Japanese around Donn Draeger started training with him. Draeger learned some pa-kua, Wang would also show some Hsing I, but mostly he taught t'ai chi. Among this group was Terry Dobson, who was a live-in student of Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry's direct senior was Chiba. Wang was doing demos in Japanese martial arts demonstrations and as Ken Cottier put it, "here you'd have all these startched Japanese in their crisp kiekko gi and their crisp snappy movements and then out would come this fat Chinaman in grey flannel slacks and suspenders and he'd start doing impossible slow t'ai chi and he'd turn around and this ass as big as the moon would waft across the stage and then he'd challenge all comers to have a go at him and the young karate boys would be rabid and he'd let them punch his stomach or kick him in the groin and he'd just laugh it off but heaven help you if you tried to punch his head. He made it clear that that was out of bounds, and if you broke the rules, then he'd become, shall we
say, active."

Terry stated to me, (I'm quoting as best as I can remember) "the uchi-deshi at honbu, particularly Chiba, started giving me a raft of **** that I was being disloyal to O-sensei by studying with Wang, and I asked O-sensei, and he said, 'sure, do what you want' but they wouldn't let up so I said, "why don't you come and check him out for yourself." So Draeger and me took Chiba, Saotome and Tamura. Well, we walked in, and Wang scopes out Chiba right away, like he knows who has the attitude here, takes one look, and says, 'come here boy.' Seriously, Wang's over sixty, paid lots of dues, is a religious leader and all, and here comes these punks, as far as he's concerned, in their twenties, copping an attitude. So Wang lets Chiba punch him in the stomach. Nothing. Chiba tries again. Nothing. Well, now Chiba loses his temper, half turns away, and then tries to sucker punch him, thinking it's timing. This time Wang sucks the fist into his belly and then drops, he gives it back, Chiba's arm goes shooting back behind his ear, and he's shaking his wrist in pain. Wang then let Chiba kick him in the groin. Nothing. So Chiba loses it, grabs Wang's wrist and puts a nikkyo or kote-gaeshi on it, some wrist lock. I don't know what Wang did, it was too fast, but Chiba slams on the floor and Wang's doing something to him with one hand and he's screaming in pain. Finally Wang lets him up and
says, "You've got a little chi, why don't you come back when you acquire more?" Then he turns to Tamura and Saotome, who were standing there with their backs against the wall, and says, "you want to try." They both shake their heads and we all went home. They never gave me **** about Wang again. . . . Far as I'm concerned, Chiba lost his chance at salvation right there. He should have quit everything and sat at Wang's feet."


The story that Dobson tells is quite congruent with my own experience with Chiba. When he first returned to Japan in 1976, I think it was, I took his classes for several months. For whatever it is worth, I was the first person he threw in the first class he taught. It's relevant for this reasib. He comes in the room, substituting for Tada, and picks the biggest guy in the room - me. It's like he wants to make an initial impression on everyone. First throw is shihonage, and he very deliberately bridged my elbow over his shoulder and tries to snap it. No ambiguity at all. Not a mistake. He was deliberately trying to hurt me. I had previously been warned about him and was in the air the moment the throw started, yet the elbow did momentarity slip out of the socket and back in with an audible click. I hit the ground and came back up for the next move (jeez, I was a loyal puppy in those days) and Chiba got the same look on his face that you see when someone's slinking out of the porno shop with a back of goodies under his arm, and then he sees I'm not on the ground, or nursing the arm, and he starts in surprise, like he's been caught at something dirty, and then covers it up. Never tried to hurt me again, seemed to like me after that like I passed some sick test - lest some loyal students think I'm reading too much into this, I deal with psychopaths on a daily basis for a living, and I know that look. So I'm inclined to believe Dobson and
Draeger over Chiba's interview.

[StickyHands]

yikes! -_- If this story is true... ouch. But what about people who aren't grandmasters? I saw and read in many places that people who do practice Tai Chi, I dont know how many, but they uhhh spend abundance of time refining their forms and posture, but during a real fight scenario, they really can't fight all that well. And if one let say has to spend 15 years learning really how to fight, and beat guys of all the other styles, what about within that 15 years, they meet up some crazy lunatic on the street, armed or unarmed?

[chen zhen]

I think an aikido vs tai chi fight would look funny, since aikido is all fast and complicated footwork, and tai chi is very rooted. I think when the aikido guy starts the wrist lock and starts doing that characteristic turning and spinning footwork, the tai chi guy will have an opportunity to push or strike the aikidokai, when his back is turned against the opponent. i know for a fact that the tai chi man would have an advantage when the other man have his back turned against him, I have myself been knocked about trying to do fancy stuff

maybe it's a little off the topic, but I'd like to show my view

[Former castleva]

Root is at least as important in aikido I´d think.
Safe to say for me it is important.

[StickyHands]

I dont think turning and spinning would be a disadvantage instead of advantage. It's a tactic infact, a form of evasion to avoid push or stikes. Remember Aikido originates from avoiding sword and unarmed attacks. Otherwise Bagua practictioner wouldnt do similar methods of twisting and turning around an opponent before attacking. But good argument. I'd like to hear more from Internal practioners or cross trainers.

[chen zhen]

a pakua exponent would (from my limited knowledge of pakua) use a palm strike or leg sweep or whatever after evading, where an aikidokai has a hold on one of your limbs, which is a totally other ballgame. If he has a hold on you, and spins and turns, you can just pull his arm in a direction where he will be unbalanced, or as I mentioned before, push him, because aikidokai doesn't train in rootedness. a pakua exponent will keep moving around you all the time evading and moving in to strike your weak spot.
there is, of course, also the possibility that the aikidokai is very skilled in his method

I have a video of steven seagal doing aikido in his youth, and there you can see how they always twist and turn all the time, I'll try to find it, and post it later

[StickyHands]

Im not exactly an Aikido expert either, but Im sure they have their methods to counter that, i.e. if you grab their wrists, they have their ways to get it free and grab you. If they simply didnt have any strategy, even a common karateka would be able to force some blows while the Aikidoka was turning with one of their limbs attached to you. And Aikido does have rooting, otherwise how do you propose that the grandmasters of it just stand in one place being immobile while multiple oppoents attack them, each being dropped to the ground? Aikido wasn't meant to be inefficient Im sure.

[chen zhen]

Don't misunderstand me, Aikido can be HIGHLY effective, I just compare it to internal CMA methods.
I don't think they practise rooting to that high level as CMA does, and when you see the grandmaster does that excibition (as we usually see when aikido is demo'ed) where he drops the attackers on the ground one by one, it's more a matter of proper technique, leverage, feeling and proper footwork, than rooting. When you see aikido masters do their thing, you rarely see them stand still

[StickyHands]

I actually did see them stand still, otherwise it would have been blunt of me to say it. But I dont really understand how can internal arts be all, end all. Every combat system has its advantage and weakness, not only just the trainee. If the internal arts were so perfect, how come we barely hear of them existing? Especially, in a tournaments or some sort? How come more people aren't interested in it? No offense, but why do we see mostly middle-aged overweight people doing it most of the time? And doing it so slowly and ineffectively, that sometimes you gotta wonder are they getting any martial value out of it. Because for most, it's a regular exercise. With the potential that internal arts has, and as long as it's been known, which I bet ever since world war II to the western society, why aren't more young people involved with it? Or used as one of the main principles taught as self defense strategy as we have utilized with jujutus or karate? If it's that effective and indomitable, how come no one explains or explores its efficacy, take it to the mainstream?? I mean would I really be able to have only let say 2 years of Tai Chi training and beat someone who has 10 years of karate or kung fu or Aikido training? Thanks.

[chen zhen]

I'm not talking about any invincible style here, I'm talking principle vs principle. and the 2 years training vs 10 years will translate into any style. of course 2 years of tai chi can't beat 10 years training in any style. IMA takes a loong time, and patience to perfect, and you need a REAL GOOD teacher, else it would be a waste of time.
and the thing with mostly old folks and hippies training IMA.. that's just too bad. then it's good there's serious people like us around
you got some good points, there

[StickyHands]

but i suppose 2 years of tai chi against 2 years of aikido, tai chi would prevail, or 10 years of tai chi against 10 years of aikido? im trying to see where you draw the line... what about the other statements i mentioned? how come the internal arts are still in hibernation? meaning again, not in mainstream? im sure younger generation would love it if they knew what it can do.

[StickyHands]

I mean honestly, tell me, how many people are able to fight really well using the internal art, and have well understanding of fa jing and actually use it? Mostly it's the good ol' chinese masters that has absorbed most of the fundamentals. Unless one completely devotes his life to the internal art, it's really hard to get actual top notch fighting skill out of it other than health benefits. Where it's safe to say Aikido becomes much more prolific principle in short time, and rather versatile to any situation. Please dont mind me, but there has been internalists with years and years spent training, who in the end, didnt know how to fight at all. With a more basic style, a good external one let say, one can figure out, wait this is wrong, im not feeling any redemption here. However, with an internal, you're to do what your Sifu says, basically, even if you see your Sifu do it so perfectly, how do you know your learning it to that extent? And can actually fight with it, because before you fight, the whole prospective of internal is to learn a different way of moving right, so it would be too late before you realize whether you learned anything at all about fighting or not. I know internal arts are more than just fighting, but Im talking about fighting here as rather specifically.

[Laughing Cow]

According to sources within Chen TJQ there are 5 levels of skill within the system.

CZL himself has stated publicly that he has not reached the 4th level yet.


Nuff said.