Technique Choices

[tparkerkfo]

Hi All,

In wing chun we all are trained to be sensitive, I am *hopefully* safely assuming. Hopefully our sensitivity allows us to flow with what ever technique is needed for the situation. It can be argued that it is wrong to force specific techniques to the situation. However, I think there are often several choices we can implement for any given stimulus, again, depending on sensitivity.

With all that out of the way, does any one find themselves using specific techniques more so than others? How about limiting certain techniques? How do these hands affect your wing chun? Meaning, do you do anything specific to set up for these favorote techniques? Is there anything wrong with using favorite techniques?

I myself tend to use a few techniques more so than others. I Use Tok Sau a lot. Often I use it with a grab, that I can't specifically say is a wing chun hand, but it seems to work very well against certain people, and not so well against others. Pak Sau comes out a lot as does Bong Sau. I feel wu sau has saved my life on many occasions, so I tend to rely on it a bit.

I had a problem several years ago where I would throw out bong sau. Every thing would be met with bong sau. It wasn't pretty. So, I decided NOT to use it under almost any occasion, which led to me using it occasionally.

Any thoughts?

Tom
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V8 ENGINE

[yuanfen]

Tom- except for specific practice to improve structure, motion or timing-
I dont think of any specific technique. It just comes out like a jack in the box- and not like the fast food version.

[S.Teebas]

I agree with what yuanfen said. I find thinking of what to use makes me too slow. When things are working they way the should be (proper focus, relaxation, structure etc..) im not sure what techniques im using. Usually it's just a matter of moving my arm to where it needs to go, and let the body move of its own accord.

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo

Any thoughts?

I think this might be the root of your problem!

Take the "thought" out of your WCK and you might be surprised at it's spontaneity!

JK

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo

In wing chun we all are trained to be sensitive, I am *hopefully* safely assuming. Hopefully our sensitivity allows us to flow with what ever technique is needed for the situation. It can be argued that it is wrong to force specific techniques to the situation. However, I think there are often several choices we can implement for any given stimulus, again, depending on sensitivity.

I don't think of it this way. For a given stimulus, there is a best choice which includes foreknowledge of restrictions on the opponent's reaction's.

With all that out of the way, does any one find themselves using specific techniques more so than others?

Yes, if the stimulus from the partner is the same. Unfortunately, most opponents learn from the first mistake and don't tend to repeat a technique right away.

How about limiting certain techniques? How do these hands affect your wing chun? Meaning, do you do anything specific to set up for these favorote techniques? Is there anything wrong with using favorite techniques?

Ah Cheung, Leung Sheung's student in China, is said to have only two hands, pak sau and punch. If you have all the experience and training he has, you can be that efficient. But for most of us, our timing and sensitivity fall short of his standard and so must resort to more complicated strategy.

I myself tend to use a few techniques more so than others. I Use Tok Sau a lot. Often I use it with a grab, that I can't specifically say is a wing chun hand, but it seems to work very well against certain people, and not so well against others.

Tok Sau? Is this the same as Pau Sau? And you use it with a grab? You didn't learn that from Ken. Grabbing always seems a desparation move, not something to train to do.

Pak Sau comes out a lot as does Bong Sau. I feel wu sau has saved my life on many occasions, so I tend to rely on it a bit.

There are three main hands in Wing Chun and variations on the theme. It's not surprising that you'd use the Pak Sau and Bong Sau a lot, is it? On the other hand, we don't even bother to name many of the hands that we use as variations on a theme.

I had a problem several years ago where I would throw out bong sau. Every thing would be met with bong sau. It wasn't pretty.

That would be unlikely to be necessary. Leung Sheung said if you can force me to Bong Sau, then you're doing pretty good, or words to that effect.

So, I decided NOT to use it under almost any occasion, which led to me using it occasionally.

That sounds about right. The hands we use most are the hands we learn in the forms I'd expect. There are others specific to the occasion.

Regards,

[Shuul Vis]

I use bong sau way too much. I tried for a long time to break this habit because i thought it was limiting me but i just couldnt stop using it. So i just focused on making whatever techniques that flowed well from bong sau very powerful for me. This helped alot when it came to fighting. But i still hope to break the habit of what i feel is over use of my bong sau.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by John Weiland
....Grabbing always seems a desparation move, not something to train to do....

May I know why "grabbing always seems a desparation move"? We train grabbing all the time. We have a drill called "trapping & grabbing". Grabbing is also used in the lop sao drill.

[Mr Punch]

I know this may sound like a smartass troll post.. but I usually use strikes more than anything else... palms, sun punches, bounce punches, elbows, futs, jums, gauns...

And a lot of aggressive stepping to attack their knees, or otherwise disrupt their structure with my legs, to put them on the defensive and give them something to think about while I'm coming through above.

'Defensively' often biu, wu, pak, crushing bong to set up the elbow, rising bong to uproot, lan, tan (esp into lap) and lots of lap.

I don't think about whatever I'm doing most the time, unless I want to work something in particular.

I didn't know that Tom was saying that he had a problem: I though he was just after feedback.

Grabbing:
I'm with Wingman, grabbing is very useful, though I can see the argument that while you're grabbing you are wasting time that could be spent striking, if your strike is stopped, or you strike path is impossible, it is part of flow round the obstruction to be able to utilise grabbing, for shock, disrupting the structure, and breaking down/through the defence... I always thought. Plus it can set up strike follow throughs into throws/takedowns.

I know you can use your paks/jums/tans/wus etc for the same purpose without having to 'waste' time closing your grip, but I find that these explosive moves aren't as effective against a determined full power attack, as the grab-it-wrench-it school of thought.

Wu sau:
Everything is through wu sau.

Just a few thoughts.

BTW, nice post John.
Tok sau is the bit when you slap your own arms in CK, which is used to trap incoming arms, as an elbow break or an sudden shocking jerk movement. That's the way I've been taught anyway.

What's a Pau sau?

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Guys,

Great responses. All seem to have words of wisdom,

S.Teebas yuanfen- I know what you guys are saying and I agree. However, I think if you were to set up an imagenary senario of the top three wing chun people alive (your choice) then you may find three different answers to the same exact stimulus. So, that would leave me to beleive we have personal choices that are manifested/ I am wondering how that affects our wing chun. It is clear that peoples wing chun is different. So, I wonder if we learn early on certain techniques are more favorable and build our wing chun around that. Ideally we would elliminate this and just act. But can we really do this? I am still learning and have a long way to go.

JK Walz- LOL, Yup to much thinking.

John, Great post. I just have a minute left. Tok sau is the last hand of each dummy section. Palm up and pressing forward. If you use it under an elbow, it is easy to uproot some. Think of a spatuala. I could not do it to you, but a few others said it worked a little. The grab is when they recover and don't allow me to push, so I pull. Tok sau isn't good for pulling, so I just grab beind the elbow and give a slight pull. I got it from my first teacher and I admit the grab is not from Ken. The tok sau does not violate anything Ken has taught me. Keep in mind, most of my information from Ken is Academic. Most of my hands on comes from my first teacher. So I am a mixed bag....of nuts.


Thanks every one...gotta go to work.

TOm
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Essential vaaapp

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo

However, I think if you were to set up an imagenary senario of the top three wing chun people alive (your choice) then you may find three different answers to the same exact stimulus. So, that would leave me to beleive we have personal choices that are manifested/ I am wondering how that affects our wing chun. It is clear that peoples wing chun is different. So, I wonder if we learn early on certain techniques are more favorable and build our wing chun around that. Ideally we would elliminate this and just act. But can we really do this? I am still learning and have a long way to go.

While I agree that you might receive three different "answers" to the same "question," you might at times receive the same response to the same stimulus. Certainly personal choice has a lot to do with it. If the three people were in a range from careful to aggressive, then I would guess that they might base their response on what will follow from them. If they all learned from the same teacher though, likely if the training was consistent, you'd see a higher consistency in responses. Remember, there is only so much in the realm of human possibilities. Likely they will have seen every hand many times before and will respond the way they train to respond each time. And for anyone thinking of posting, "Aha, I have a new technique since the inception of Wing Chun," please don't. I feel sorry that you suffer from delusions.

Tok sau is the last hand of each dummy section. Palm up and pressing forward. If you use it under an elbow, it is easy to uproot some. Think of a spatuala. I could not do it to you, but a few others said it worked a little.

Ok, I didn't (and don't) recognize the name.

The grab is when they recover and don't allow me to push, so I pull. Tok sau isn't good for pulling, so I just grab beind the elbow and give a slight pull. I got it from my first teacher and I admit the grab is not from Ken. The tok sau does not violate anything Ken has taught me.

Yeah, Tok Sao as you describe it is in our reportoire.

This lends itself to one of the new things I learned at camp this year , Chai Sao. Chai means kneading (the dough). Kneading the dough means to rock (disrupt) your opponent with movements such as Tok Sao, but in keeping with principles, not letting your opponent get away when he is upset, but instead, pulling him back to within your range with your fingertips, then alternately hitting him, pushing him back and forth and side-to-side, until you are done with him. The effect on your opponent is of being tossed around like a rag doll, being pushed back on his heels, then pulled up on his toes.

Try it with especially stiff newbies to develop it. Once they learn to unlock their shoulders and relax, it's harder to do.

Regards,

[S.Teebas]

I think if you were to set up an imagenary senario of the top three wing chun people alive (your choice) then you may find three different answers to the same exact stimulus. So, that would leave me to beleive we have personal choices that are manifested/ I am wondering how that affects our wing chun.

Hi Tom,

I think some things to consider also include the persons individual development. By development i mean skills in performing WC basics that have a 'chaos theory' like effect. For example one persons structural development may have varous flaus, which could posisbly lead to tension in certain areas of the body, which will inhibbit natural movement to some certain position. Thus, the chances chances of moving to that specific position are greatly deminished (but this is going to vary from moment to moment depending on the actual situation and variables the WCer is in, eg chemical dumps in the body can affect performance etc..). I think such a scenario could yeild various results.
Im speaking in the contex that the WC performed is baised on moving naturally and optimally. The person on the recieving end of an attack is going to move with what he/she UNDERSTANDS to be the most benificial movement that pertains to the circumstances he/she is currently experiencing.

Ideally we would elliminate this and just act. But can we really do this?

I think its possible. Through confidence in a large range of movements (i.e. the forms) we can move anywhere.