FYI: Augustine Fong-Org.

[yuanfen]

Many years ago, I created and registered the trade mark of the Fong's Wing Chun logo, to represent myself and my school. I did not show disrespect to my sifu by copying or stealing his name or logo. I expect all those who teach my material to be creative in your teaching, and in how you represent yourself. Those who use my logo are misrepresenting themselves, the Fong's Wing Chun Gung Fu Federation and me. I have stated many times in the past that no one represents me. I strongly encourage all those who teach my material to have the self confidence to represent themselves, and this should be reflected in your logo. It should not resemble my logo in any way. I, Augustine Fong, will only stand behind all my true instructors 100%, not the instructors using my name. Thank you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The above statement by Sifu Augustine Fong appears in the instructors section of his website which is at:
<www.augustinefong@fongswingchun.com>

Just today I noticed on the net that a person residing in the UK
on his site has listed his organization as Fong's Eouropean Wing
Chun Association with Fong's pictures and a Fong logo in a side column. This is not truth in advertisement..
Fong hasa list of associated instructors at his website who are members of Fong's wing chun. But the ONLY Fong wing chun school is in Tucson, Arizona. Period. There are no branch shools or chain schools. There is no real Fong's Euoropean Wing Chun Association.

PS- Is there in the UK any coordinating agency for the martial arts?
How does one go about reporting false advertisment and misuse of organizational names in the UK.?

[dezhen2001]

hi yuanfen,

the only group i can think of here is the British Council for Chinese Martial Arts, and they can be found here: http://www.bccma.com/

im not too sure if the group in question will be part of it though, or how updated their website is. But it should have contact details on it.

This is the main UK association, but there are many other smaller ones so it would be hard to find really.

hope this helps

dawood

[ntc]

Tell Augustine about this and get his reaction. Assuming he will confirm that there is no such organization in the UK, have him authorize you to send an email/letter to this organization requesting them to remove the recognition. Then to take further action, post a message on Augustine's site that denounces this organization and disapprove of its claim, making sure that you have Augustine's approval in so doing.

[yuanfen]

NTC- Sifu Fong already knows about it and the person has been told expicitly that he needs to take Fong's name out of his organization name. It is upto Sifu Fong to take further action
as he sees fit. I just bring this to the attention of fellow KFO posters. ... Fong has no chain, franchise or branches.... outside of his school in Tucson.


The guy used to be with Leung Ting and then shifted to Smart
and apparently thought that the Fong umbrella would be good
for him.

He has tried to cultivate Sifu Fong for his own marketing purposes
and became angry when things didnt go his way- but still there is
the Fong name on his site.

Incidentally Sigung Ho occasionally has had problems of people
name dropping. He has also put out a similar statement for his own HKM martial art association.

The fast ( and uneven) spreading of wing chun sure has its downside in greed and over commercialization.

[yuanfen]

The misrepresentation FYI is by Derek Vernon of Torquay, devron UK who runs Temple Gym and has the big webpage for
the misnamed "Fong's European Wing Chun Association" and also claims to have schools in Romania, Moldova and UK.

People are free to learn from him (caveat emptor principle) but the fact remains- Fong has no such Association. His school is totally based in Tucson.
His instructors are listed on his website and membership in his Tucson based Center is annual.

Enough said on this subject/thread on this forum.
Cheers and Bye.
Back to the regularly scheduled forum noise.

[ntc]

Yuanfen:

I am sure Augustine appreciates you looking out for him, as would Sifu Ho and other sifus about name stealing and abuse. I know that Sifu Ho particularly gets extremely upset about people misusing his name, because he is very strict about who he considers as having the proper amount of training to be able to teach what he has taught them. He takes a lot of pride in what he teaches, and he spends a lot of time, dedication, sweat, and tears in cultivating his students. So it really ticks him off when someone out of the blue will use his name. You have been around Augustine for a long time, so I have no doubts that you will agree with me that he is the same. I would be just as upset myself, and I hope this guy in the UK will realize the injustice he is doing, the problem he is causing, and will withdraw his claim.

Best of luck.

[flaco]

look on planet wing chun, and you will see like 30 guys using fongs logo, guys that were in his organization in the past, and left. i also see jose grados has fongs letter stating that he is a fongs wc instructor. i have seen a tape where fong is standing with grados, and grados is introduced as fongs top student in ny? its on grados "through the years tape"

[roache]

Hello,
My name is emmet I am a student of Fong's in Tucson. I have only been a student for four years so I have no authority to speak on this matter, but I would like to address what I consider a slight misrepresentation. First of all the insistence on one's own (unique) logo is relatively recent. I think it will take a little time before everyone has a chance to change (if it is even needed). Secondly, I disagree with the statement that Fong is like Ho in the sense that "it really ticks him off" or he would be "extremely upset". You would probably be surprised at how unaffected he is (or at least appears to be to me). He is not a prideful man. In fact he is a constant lesson to me in Taoist detachment.Furthermore Dereek Vernon is not using the name "out of the blue". Over a year ago he asked if he could "represent" and Fong said no. There was some bad feelings, but even now there is still communication between them. Derek was even in town during last winter. He and Fong were talking and still very friendly. What was said or where the relationship is now, I do not know. It's none of my buisness.As for Grados, it's simply none of my buisness. I've only heard good things about his wing chun and his teaching I do not wish to say anything more. I agree with yuanfen that in regards to this entire matter "its upto Fong to take further action". If indeed he thinks further action is necessary.

Peace,
e

[ntc]

Good points, Roache. By your posting, I am assuming that you were addressing the comments I had previously made, and your thougths are well taken. I was merely suggesting that people should be more conscientious about claiming to be representing certain individuals or association. A logo is merely a symbol whose real strength to the external world is marketing and background recognition.

Here are some thoughts:
- if Augustine had declined the association, then it should not have been used
- Yuenfan brings up a good point..... if a claim is made to be part of an association, there should be some form of paperwork showing the approval of being part of the association
- all the UK guy has to do to quell this issue being addressed in the thread is to post such an approval; if he does not have one, request one from Augustine, and I am sure if he states the reasons why he needs one, Augustine would be glad to comply
- however, if the approval is denied, then shouldn't he remove the claim?

All I was addressing was Yuenfan's thought about this claim to be authenticated... no more, no less.

I am aware of the fact that Augustine is a very peaceful, kind, and wonderful person..... he is brought up often by Sifu Ho. But still, I doubt no one wants to be misrepresented.... do you?

Sorry for beating this to death... bottom line is, "if he does not feel like he is misrepresenting, just post up something... a certificate, a letter from Augustine, a recognition on Augustine's website, etc.", and everyone here that has an issue with him using the association will shut their mouths up, welcome him, and move on.

[yuanfen]

Flaco-
On Planet Wing Chun- look again.!!!

Augustine Fong"s logo is a copyrighted logo that belongs to him alone... without exception.

Often folks have the model of other visible organizations with branches in mind- does not apply to Fong's wing chun.

Grados had Fong upto NYC once and came down to Tucson once.
He is NOT part of Fong's Wing Chun Federation. The claimed letter you refer to has a problem of veracity !!! If you go toa Fong seminar
or have him give a seminar- you can have your picture taken with him and he can give you a proof of attendance. He is a decent sociable person. Marketing pictures shrewdly for a different goal by folks is just that- marketing.

I have a picture with Jack Dempsey somewhere- I was never his student- just ate at his restaurant, talked with him and shook his hand in NYC circa 1952. I have WSL's and TST's s autograph- because I respect them- I am not their student. I have a picture with Ho kam Ming. He is my sigung. I am not his student and I dont peddle it as though I am. I have Chen Xiao Wang's signature- took lessons- am not his student.

Grados is a good fighter but what he does is not really Fong's wing chun. My old point is and remains--- wing chun is a superb martial art...but it is not the only way to learn how to fight.
First rate choy li fut ( substitute several other arts)is better than 4th rate wing chun.

But first rate wing chun is incomparable- rises like a lotus through the muck. Worth searching for first rate instruction and sticking with it, rather than name dropping.

Good wishes...

[yuanfen]

Good points NTC- lets move on and discuss wing chun.

[ntc]

Yuanfen... sounds good to me.

[roache]

Hello,
I tried to respond in a more personal manner with a pm, as this topic is indeed a dead horse, but I guess I typed too much. So I will have to respond here. First, thank you for your considerate response. Secondly, I completely agree with you that people should be more conscientious about claiming representation of individuals or associations. But whether they do or don't is not up to me.
"I doubt no one wants to be misrepresented... do you?"
I feel Fong is less concerned with people misrepresenting him than he is concerned for them misrepresenting themselves by hiding behind his name. He would prefer, and indeed now insists, that people have the confidence in themselves (hopefully born from dedicated hours of training) to promote their wing chun as their own. Once inside the kwoon you can find out their lineage is Fong, but what they teach and practise is their wing chun. As for me, do I want to be misrepresented? What I want is irrelevant. If someone wants to talk badly about me, they will. I simply express myself honestly. If others accept my expression or question it is secondary. I can't endeavor to be "more" honest next time.
I agree it would be helpful if people could back up their claims with a "certificate, a letter", etc. But in this day and age such things are not hard to forge. I think in response to this Fong has stated on his website that no one represents him. And anyone who claims to do so is basically talking out their ass (my paraphrasing of course). In the end I think how people live their life is reflected in the life they live. Anyone who misrepresents themself will never know the benefits of sincere expression. The inherent value of a life lived honestly and fully. If some people make a buck off of using sifu's name so be it. It doesn't keep him up at night, so I don't give it any of my energy as well. He has stated his truth publically for all to see. If anyone is truly interested in his school or his certified instructors I sugest they call and talk to him personally.

All the best to you.
Good luck in your continued training.

si-dai emmet

[ntc]

Good points, and a good suggestion. Thanks for the feedback.

[flaco]

yuanfen, i have the tape, with fond standing with grados, as grados is introduced as fongs top student in ny, so i dont think grados made this stuff up, also, he was in fongs federation, but has not attended the instructor seminars, and is not a member no more. i am not a student or friend of grados, but i have the tape. its called grados wing chun through the years, you should check it out.

also, if someone puts fongs logo on the planet wc listing, as their lineage, i dont think that they mean they are representing fong, but it tells people where you learned, and many guys have their own logo next to fongs, so using fongs in that matter, is of course up to fong. but in the end, it really is a matter of descency, i like you have trained with many greats, and would never say they are my teacher. i had an old sifu, who did this, he would go to seminars, get a picture, and tell people that he was a student of the famous teacher. so i agree with you there. i also have had talks with fong, and i think hes a good guy. i asked him how to avoid these problems, and we had a talk. i have seen some people doing this to my xin i teacher, and its a very selfish thing.

but, if someone was once in the organization, and was later kicked out,its different. anyway, i really like fong as a person, and i will see him next month.im sure it will be a great experience.