Chu Sau Lei Chi Sau Faat

[Mckind13]

The best way to get to know the Chi Sau Lei Chi Sau Faat (Robert Chu’s key word methods for Chi Sau) is to read his article.

http://chusaulei.com/martial/article...es_chisao.html

In my next post I will describe the first method. And so on as long as there is interest. Please no trolls. The best way to discuss this would be to compare the points with points you may use in your system of Wing Chun.

For instance,

Rene might describe the 12 keywords of Sum Nung Wing Chun
Jim R. has key methods for hid Kou Lau (sp) system
Chango may be qualified to talk about the Chi Sim 14 Kiu Sau methods
One of the HFY or VTM members may be able to talk about the HFY methods.

Thanks

[Mckind13]

Point one:
1. Mun Fa/ Yin Fa - Asking/inquiring and enticing. Asking can be done with the hands, pressure, body, steps, and technique. In asking, you pressure the opponent and use 4 ounces to offset his 1000 pounds.
Everyone uses Mun Sau. This does not wholly refer to the hand position, but rather to the idea of inquiring about your opponent’s energy and intention.

I may equalize and wait
I may add energy to an opponent’s bridge
I may be soft and yielding or firm and unyielding

The method of asking is to see what my opponent will do.
When I attack or apply pressure, will he rush in, will he step away, will he stay in place.

I might inquire by striking stepping or kicking, or by adjusting, evading or withdrawing.

Mun Sau is surveillance and preparation. It functions at Chi Sau range or from across the room.

I will answer some questions to this before we proceed.

Mun Sau is listening.

Thanks, Peace, Love

David

[Wingman]

Mun Sau is surveillance and preparation. It functions at Chi Sau range or from across the room.

How would you execute mun sao (surveillance and preparation) if there is no contact?

[Mckind13]

Good question Wingman.

In Chi Sau, our bridges can be used to feel the opponent. The bridges, through experience gain sensitivity and the ability to add an extra dimension to the experience. I am no longer just dependent on sight, I have the sense of touch as well. In my example, when in contact there are many ways to gain information as well as feed information to an opponent to entice him in to acting or reacting.

The same can be done outside of contact.

Mun Fa/Yin Fa is a mental method. It is a way of thinking. I can apply the idea of asking/inquiring from any point in time.

Just like a good football team might watch footage of the other teams plays, so might I watch you Chi Sau before touching your hands, or talk to your training partners to see how they like to Chi Sau.

If I have no time to prepare or the conditions are unfriendly, there is still allot of information to be derived from an opponent pre-contact in the seconds before we engage.


I can read body language.
- Are you calm? I could agitate you.
- Are you angry? I could sooth you.
- Running your mouth? I could cut you off.
- Silent and brooding? I could get you to talk
I can put obstacles between you and I to see how you react.
I can face you with intention or pretend not to notice.
If you are far enough away I can present the side, front or even back (dangerous) of my body to see how you approach me.

There are many elements to be considered.


Sharing the methods of my family happily and openly!

David

[yuanfen]

David-
what you have elaborated so far is not unique to any one person-
just the author's verbalization of fundamental principles.

I have not read the whole article carefully- but a quick glance
confirms the above as well.

There are different verbal ways of expressing these things.
Then there is understanding, practice and application.

((In a hurry- since my dog is offerring his mun sao---early in the morning- walk time))

joy

[t_niehoff]

Hi Joy,

yuanfen wrote:

what you have elaborated so far is not unique to any one person-
just the author's verbalization of fundamental principles. . . I have not read the whole article carefully- but a quick glance
confirms the above as well. . . There are different verbal ways of expressing these things. Then there is understanding, practice and application. JC

Exactly. WCK must share the same fundamental principles or it wouldn't be WCK. No lineage "owns" them. Individual expression will vary depending on our latent talents, skill, and understanding.

Terence

[Mckind13]

Terence

Thank you, you have hit the nail right on the head.

Robert Chu's methods are not unique or new in the sense that they have never been seen before.

What he created was a way to take many of the very basic broad brushstrokes from the art and look at them through the lens of Chi Sau.

These methods are tools, they exist where Wing Chun exists.

I will make the world a better place!

David

[reneritchie]

David,

Yuen Kay-San's 12 methods differ from this slightly in that they're not intended solely for Chi Sao (though of course they can be applied to that dynamic as they can most others).

Why I point this out is that in Chi Sao, we too stress the Mun concept, perhaps paramount. But in the SYF (Sup Yee Faat), we stress Dap first.

Dap is literally to join two bridges (kiu). It doesn't speak to letting the opponent go first and then cutting them off (jeet), or in going first and asking (mun) what they will do, if anything, to stop you. Either is possible, it just speaks to the connection, not which of the several ways you'll get there.

Why not more specific? In combat, it is not paint by numbers, it is not "bullet time", it is not chess-like move-countermove. Anything can happen, and thus you cannot preplan, cannot anticipate, you can only depend on the hard work (kung fu) you put in to build the proper reflexes (ability to assume structurally supported alignment and geometrically efficient angles under high stress that will hold up to pressure) at the right time. If you then have the luxury of extra time to get into a strategic thought process (eg. a duel) great, you'll only do better. But if you lack the time (eg. an ambush) no problem, you won't fall apart.

Joy, Terence,

Exactly. To draw on Joy's old analogy, same subject, each teacher with their own text book and method of transmission. Otherwise it wouldn't be WCK, or we'd be the machines (insert T2 music...)

[Mckind13]

Thank you Rene,

My guess without going to the source, is that Mun is used as the first key word because the list is based on a Chi Sau format.

So Dop just deals with the concept of creating a bridge?

This means that whether you attack, jeet or recieve the opponents energy the first goal is to join bridges. The afterwards you might stick, circle, or use a technique?

Peace... I am gone!

David

[reneritchie]

David,

Yup, even if (hopefully!) that bridge is my fist in their face. Without Dap, unless we're using missile weapons, there's no fight.

Agreed about Man.

[PaulH]

David and Rene,

I enyoy your very lucid explanation of the WC concepts. I have some premature questions but I rather wait till the whole thing is done. Just want to say thank you for your good will and generous sharing.

Regards,

[Mckind13]

Paul,

I'll post the second key word or Chi Sau Faat tonight, but please ask in the meantime.


Peace

David

[PaulH]

I am not sure that I understand your discussion on the joining concept. I quote your clarifying question to Rene:

"So Dop just deals with the concept of creating a bridge?

This means that whether you attack, jeet or recieve the opponents energy the first goal is to join bridges. The afterwards you might stick, circle, or use a technique? "

Which Rene confirmed and stated also that hitting him in the face is a way of joining.

Is hitting and joining the same or different? Do you break the hitting action into 2 phases, i.e., connecting and then power application?

Regards,

[reneritchie]

Paul,

We use the hammer and nail analogy. First you place the nail against the wall and press slightly to make sure there's something to go into. Then you hit it with the hammer.

[PaulH]

Thanks, Rene. My 2nd question is what do you seek to join? If I give you a fake punch, a false signal, or a false intention, do you join it first? How do you avoid chasing hands in the joining concept?

Regards,