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Thread: Chu Sau Lei Chi Sau Faat

  1. #31
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    Jeet Fa

    Back from a full day training

    Jeet Fa - Methods of intercepting - beating the opponent to the strike, recognizing threat and immediately shutting it off with the hands, body or steps.

    Jeet is a great method. It deals with intercepting on all levels.

    Intention - Before my partner even tries to attack me, he must want to attack, or intend to throw a punch for example. If my sensitivity is good and my partner is not so good at hiding his intent I can shut off the attack before the word go.

    Initiation - As the technique initiates, it often lacks perfect mechanics and structure. The arm may not be extended enough to prevent me from collapsing it or the power may not be developed enough to keep me from jamming the attack.

    Development - as the attack develops, I may have to intercept with my own techniques. Counter punching or inserting a Tan/Bong/Fook into the path of the oncoming punch. It is better of course to catch the attack early because once the punch is developed, it is hard to stop and also it may be in a better position for the attacker to counter your jeet or follow through with another attack.

    Tools - Tools of interception use the bridge, the body, and the mind.
    The bridges are simple enough. Use the Chuie or one of the three seeds to intersect and cut off the attack.
    The body can also be used in this way to close and smother the opponent but also, since it is the target, it can be moved closer or further away to disrupt the intention of the attacker.
    Finally, the mind can be used to intercept the opponents intentions. He wants to hit me, but every time he sets me up I change before he can attack, or I present a target and then hide it again, anything that will 'Jeet' the intention of his strike.

    As an example, country x wants to launch a missile at me.
    I can shoot it down over my city
    I can shoot it down over their country
    I can shoot the launcher
    I can shoot the telephone lines that the leader of the country uses to give the launch order...etc etc etc.
    I can threaten the leader
    I can assassinate the leader
    I can point my missiles at the leader
    I can use diplomacy with the leader

    All these thousands of variations, while in a Chi Sou model may include some other methods, they also involve intercepting.

    In my example I am using many ways to either intercept the actual attack, the method of attack or the reason for attack.


    Thanks I am tired so if this post is clear as mud ask me to explain it better.

    David

  2. #32
    Good posts, Dzu and David. With regard to Jeet Fa, it is not easy to intercept attacks that you are unfamiliar with. Since most of us train our lifetime within the WC framework and its 3 seed tools, how would you use this concept against unfamiliar styles like boxers, Muy Thai, Savate kickboxer, Grappler with their unorthodox attacks. Experience with different kind of fighters would help to develop your Jeet Fa, so my question is does a WC student has to go out testing against many of these kinds of fighters before he knows how to jeet well. Can it be taught without going through such exotic experience?

    Regards,

  3. #33
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    PaulH,

    The ideal situation is that I intercept when I sense his intention or when his attack begins to develop. This requires good timing, judge of distance, visual acuity, and proper structure to transfer power from the ground. Any movement/muscle twitch/etc. will trigger the response and the end result is that I don't know what the final attack will be because I have cut it off from the start.

    In reality, however, our reaction to the unfamiliar can delay or disrupt our sense of timing. One way to resolve this is to make the unfamiliar, familiar. In my experience, the best way to gain this exposure is not to 'cross train' in other MA per se, but to workout with practitioners of other MA. I would recommend both cooperative drills and some uncooperative sparring/san sao. The focus should be on intercepting from the start when many attacks are physically similar (shoulder begins to drop, leg starts to lift or step, body starts to turn, weight starts to sink).

    IMO, it is NOT a good idea to practice specific counters to different attacks. This path leads to a paint-by-numbers approach and hesitation in application.

    Dzu

  4. #34
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    Hi Dzu,

    Dzu-THE-man wrote:

    IMO, it is NOT a good idea to practice specific counters to different attacks. This path leads to a paint-by-numbers approach and hesitation in application. D

    Yes, WCK does not micro-manage. And to build on what you and Dave have written, jeet does not literally mean 'intercept' but rather "cut-off" and that subtle distinction is IME significant. We first seek to "cut-off" the opponent's ability to launch an attack -- any attack, and if that fails we "cut-off" the specific attack itself. There are many methods (faat) of jeet: shocking the opponent, destroying his balance (both of these directly affect the opponent), flanking (moving to one side so that the other can't attack us), obstruction (jamming, trapping, etc.), range/distance (these last three don't affect the opponent), and combinations of the above. The significance of jeet faat is that the opponent will need to recover to attack or defend so that we have a free move, and in this way we can stay ahead of the timing. IMHO jeet is one of the core principles of WCK; a principle that informs everything we do. TN

    Terence

  5. #35
    Jeet is the second of the YKS/SN SYF. For us, it is to intercept, to cut off. We have a saying that the opponent should never be allowed to move more than once. The instant they move, you should Jeet, cut them off and render them incapable of further offense. Several things factor into this. Positioning is one. If you flank your opponent or have them flank themselves you can positionally cut them off (your relative positions will be where all your weapons can engage them and none of theirs can engage you; your meridian line will be pointing straight at their spine while theirs points off away from you completely). Likewise, if you're engaged with your opponent's arms and they try to kick, you can manipulate them with your arms to cut off the kick (play with their balance and momentum so that they stumble and their recovery reflexes are engaged, or are added to or subtracted from so that they over or undershoot their objective), etc.

    This follows on naturally from Dap, where the bridges have been engaged, into what we do once their engaged. For example, a punch is coming in, my bridge rises and makes contact (it is formless at that stage since whatever form it takes will depend on the quality of the opponent's punch - rigid or flexible, stubborn or nimble, already expended or with power left to be spent, etc.). Once in contact, arm, waist, and body coordinate and, for example, perhaps Lap Sao is the best fit for the moment and I end up in a position facing them while they're twisted with their own arm in between me and them. (Note, while I'm describing each SYF separately, of course, they'll all really working together and astute observers will note Chi helped me determine how to Jeet, Mo keeps me locked on his center, etc.) This is why we refer to them as methods rather than linear stages.

  6. #36
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    Thanks guys for refining my kludgy post

    Paul,

    I agree that to refine our Wing Chun we need understand how an opponent will attack, not necessarily cross train.
    Cross training can put bad habits in our wing chun, but training with skilled people will enlighten us to their methods.
    On the other hand learning to throw a thai kick and the mechanics of that kick or how to shoot in may increases our awareness as well. I think we have to be careful though to stay true to the Wing Chun form or we will lose functionality.

    David

  7. #37
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    Point 4

    Tao/Lou Fa - Methods of leaking and stealing, seeing an opportunity and taking it, or passively finding it


    Hi guys, maybe Dzu can coment. I want to keep this thread going but have apaper to write.

    Thanks

    David

  8. #38
    Tao (steal) and Lao (leak) are the 11th and 12th SYF (a few in SNWCK combine them together into a hybrid 11th and then add a 2nd hybrid pair (Kao Saat) for 12).

    Tao as I understand it takes advantage of an opponent's inaction. If though error or circumstance (can't be in two places at once) they leave an exploitable hole, or can't cover a hole you force them to create, you can just go right in and start stealing (go in through the hole and start systematically opening it up and breaking them down, and ending the encounter).

    Lao by contrast takes advantage of an opponent's action. This can also be the result of an error (they over act, too much movement, too much power, too much space, etc.) or circumstance (countering one thing sets them up for another)

  9. #39
    I suppose it all boils down to seizing opportunity to shoot the arrow into the ***** in the armor whenever it appears. In the chess game, the counter is quite interesting. As you start to come in, his pieces would take away your key positions (space) before you can launch the final attack and start to snipe away your pieces (timing) disrupting your whole stratagem. You are now caught in a quagmire. What best option do you have at this point? Can you steal or leak safely without ever walking into his trap? I notice JKD or BJJ are very good at this as they have excellent timing and space management.

    Regards,

  10. #40
    Interesting analogy Paul! JKD derives from WCK so perhaps there is either ancestral or simply criterial overlap. BJJ hash the senshibility chu flow wif te go.

  11. #41
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    Rene has already summed it up pretty well. To me, Tao/Lao really emphasizes freeing your hands, feet, and mind. It follows the concept of Yin/Yang.

    If my partner is strong up top, I attack down below. If he's strong on the right, I attack on his left. If he has a certain timing, I find the timing and Biu (dart) when he is weakest. It is the cheap shot that sneaks in somehow. It can be used to distract, or set up the opponent for the finishing blow by finding or creating a crease in his defense. Once the crease is found, the body structure follows to disrupt and cleave the center.

    The idea of Tao/Lao is not to be trapped because you are merely taking advantage of what the opponent gives you. If he changes, you change with him. There is no fixation on any one particular target or approach.

    Dzu

  12. #42
    Thanks, Dzu and Rene. I agree. The leaking and stealing concepts to me suggest the changeability and natural flow of water. It reacts to the obstacles in its course by going elsewhere where it is least resisted. This is what change is all about. Nevertheless I also like the concept of the dam that contain such free flowing water. Here the opponent does not change giving you occasion to change accordingly; He bait and trap your water as you pour in to fill his empty hole.

    Regards,

  13. #43
    Hi Paul,

    The water analogy is always good, but its important to remember that, unlike water (except in a James ******* flick , we're sentient, self-determistic entities, so we can choose to flow like water one minute, and then make an experienced, sensitive decision to change the next (to avoid being dammed or bottled up like Evian .

  14. #44
    Thanks for the reminder, Rene. While we are on the topic of the dam, I can't wait for this good thread to flow again.

    Regards,

  15. #45
    Weird, C.a.m.e.r.o.n is being auto censored??

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