Kiuh Sau 14 concepts

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

All,
Sifu Hoffman has emailed me, and politely requested that any and all discussion of Chi Shim please not be had on this msg board. If you have questions regarding them, he would very much like for you to email him directly. I'm not going to censor people discussing Chi Shim, but he would appreciate it if people wouldn't discuss it on here. Just thought I'd let you know.

[yuanfen]

A sensible position- I sure dont care to discuss any art besides wing chun.

Let things that cannot be discussed be...Jee Shim, etc...

((However- if Gee Shim together with VTM's BM publishes articles as they have (Kung Fu-Qigong may-June 2002) in a public area- mentioning 14 principles- it stands to reason it can be discussed
anywhere asking for further public clarification---though I dont see the usefulness of discussing it.
Its a little tiresome to be told of things in Jee Shim or anyther system that are made into mysteries requiring off list communications- visitations etc. So why not let both groups be- and let them do whatever it is that they are doing?
And ignore their comments and sarcasms in the forum.
Equity also points to Firehawk and others not mentioninga thing about Gee Shim...??? Not just those who have sought clarifications...

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Sandman2[Wing Chun]
Sifu Hoffman has emailed me, and politely requested that any and all discussion of Chi Shim please not be had on this msg board.

LOL! That's hilarious!

Okay everyone, please, out of respect for my lineage, I would like to not have any discussion of the Ip Man lineage on this forum.

If you have any questions regarding Ip Man lineage, you can private message me, personally.

[yuanfen]

I do not want anything about myself to be discussed in this forum.
email old jong if you have any questions. Given his line of work-
he knows all about me that you need to know. And I promise not to throw anything at him including . (see DSM lV- p 777 for the hint about my system )).

[Andreas Hoffman]

Here are the 14(18) Kiu sao of weng chun, some families are using 14 some families 18:

the idea is that you feel the connection with your partners(opponents) and the invironment you feel them thru relaxation, from there you learn to find and to use natural the bridge, or more advanced the bridge finds you because you are empty:

1.Tiu (pick up) - 2.Buot (push aside)
3.Da (striking) - 4.Pun (folding)
5.Juar (grasping-push) - 6.Lei (pull ("a waggon"))
7.See (tear)-8.Tshai (pull ("to open")
9.Kam (catch)-10.Na (hold)
11Fuong (prevent free movement/shield)- 12.Nghai (totally prevent free movement)
13.Bik (cornering someone)-14.Hup (further development)
15.Tan (swallow)-16.Tuo (spit)
17.Bot (trick)-18.Saat(kill)

Some families explaining all 18 with 14 (without Nr.: 9./10./11./12.)

Mo Kiu Mahn Yau Kiu
Kiu Loi Kiu Sheung Gwo
Lei Kiu bin jik da

Andreas Hoffmann

[t_niehoff]

RR wrote:

Just for fun, I went and checked my copy of Andreas Hoffmann sifu's excellent (still by far the best work I've ever seen) book on Weng Chun Kuen, and lo and behold, right there in good ole text, are the 14 Kiu Sao methods with short explinations following each. Unfortunately, they're in German.

Aha! So they can be described in writing (Andreas does it on the forum too). Come to think of it, they're even writing a book about HFY . . . makes me sort of wonder what the fuss about talking about these arts in writing is all about. TN

Andreas Hoffman wrote:

Here are the 14(18) Kiu sao of weng chun, some families are using 14 some families 18 . . .

What? 18? Did they steal this number from Robert Chu? LOL! Sorry, just kidding . . . sometimes the lunacy is so prevailing . . . . TN

Terence

[Chango]

I personally have no problem posting information about HFY or Chi Sim. I have found that with out having " shared expiences" assumptions are often made and ideas tend to get lost. It seems that without shared experiences the internet only serves as a method of what Rene Ritchie coined as "exchanging levels of misunderstanding" so It again goes back to the same reason you cannot learn Kung fu from a video tape or book.

I have no problem sharing information. I just have problems with disrespect and illintent. I find this to be waist of my time as well as the time of others envolved. It is a said state that one cannot discuss WCK without having some jumping in and creating sides or showing disrespect to the lineage, person or information all together. We all would benifit alot from focusing on our common ground instead of what makes our families different. It does not take a rocket scientist or brain surgeon to see that each family has some types of differences. In HFY we have a concept called maximum efficiency we have methods of testing this with through out the entire system. This term may offend some but this is how it is passed on in HFY. If discussing this issue you must remeber it is not saying better then one lineage or the other. One must challenge the HFY on it's proof of ME when one has a first hand chance. The system demands this from it's students as the system is being passed. So one should not take this personal. Just as with the Moy Yat system there is a term called the "unstopable" Techniques. Of course the Moy Yat system has a context which is used to explain this. None the less respect should be paid to the system and it's family. After all if we back up and look at the over all picture we are all in one big family!

one must pay proper respect to those who are Sifu's or concidered Grandmaster's of thier lineages. Some families may choose not to have this format. However respect should be given to those who have the responsiblity of guiding others through the system. That can be a great responsibility. one must also pay respect to his or her sources when presenting information. So let's move on and get into a more positive discussion.


Chango (saat geng sau) Noaks

[canglong]

I would just add to what my Sibak Chango has already put forth by suggesting this forum is merely one of many starting points when seeking answers to general questions. Any detailed information should always be followed up with more personal research and a visit to a qualified instructor whenever possible.

BTW- Just for fun, I went and checked my copy of Andreas Hoffmann sifu's excellent (still by far the best work I've ever seen) book on Weng Chun Kuen, and lo and behold, right there in good ole text, are the 14 Kiu Sao methods with short explinations following each. Unfortunately, they're in German. Perhaps I'll have time to pop them into babblefish or the like next week. Rene Ritchie

Just one example of researching a general question. The details of these 14 kiu sau which are very intricate could only properly be shared with the experience of a qualified practitioner such as Grandmaser Hoffmann or one of his students also very knowledgable on the topic of the Chi Sim Weng Chun system.

[spyder]

What is the problem of discussing Kung Fu? One can write music down. One can make a 3D picture on a 2D surface. I think the problem is understanding both Kung Fu and communication. If we are all doing wing chun, then we should have a common base. It's not wing chun if it is that different from what we all experience I would think.

If written words can not convey wing chun, a picture certainly cannot. Yet there are tons of books on wing chun. And dancing. and other topics that must be felt or experienced. If we can not discus, they why have a forum?

Spyder