reality for wing chunners these days

[reneritchie]

Ryan Parker, a noted Okinawan pressure point stylist, entered the NHB cage to show the effectiveness of PPS in real application. Unfortunately, he was somewhat less than effective.

I'm not sure there are real examples of people using them under pressure against competant, resistant opponents to make them part of a high-percentage defensive system. (and FWIW, many grappling tournaments allow pressure point manipulation -- since they don't consider it makes a difference at all).

WRT the one punch knockout, its happened, sometimes due to excellent timing (Silva vs. Newton), but just as often a lucky break (Shembri vs. Sakuraba or Henderson vs. Renzo). For me it goes back to being low-percentage, and risky if anything goes wrong. For me, WCK is not about low percentage techniques, its about robust, layered, systematized strategies that can cope with competant, resistant opponents and the errors that may occur during a stress situation.

[anerlich]

I have a blue belt in Machado BJJ.

BJJ is absolutely fascinating and so much fun. Much more so than WC for me at the moment.

I've lost interest all these endless theoretical discussions. Some people may feel a need to prove Wing Chun more effective than anything and without need of revision or innovation, perhaps not just to feed their egos or avoid admitting some things to themselves, but I am not one of them.

It just ain't that important.

[flaco]

edmund, if you dont want to grapple, thats cool, but im talking about people who really are into the self defense part, and knowing if their art really works or not. remember, every tkd school is filled with people who think that one step sparring, and light sparring prepeares them for reality. and again, some of the tkd guys can fight.

but on a whole, many wc people train wc vs. wc, and the odds of facing a guy throwing straight punches and doing lop sau on you is none. also, the nhb thing is a joke, and wc guy allowed to use all his weapons, will mostly lose, if they have not grappled. there is not one guy in nhb that was not taken to the ground.

as far as the lawyer,these guys at that school are paying tons for lawyers, so you missed out.

i would gladly suggest you guys use goggles, and have a guy try to take you down, use all your deadly strikes, etc, and see what happens, go to any high school wrestling team, and try it.

again, wc can beat grappling, but you need to train it against grapplers.you need to perfect timing, etc.

[namron]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Ryan Parker, a noted Okinawan pressure point stylist, entered the NHB cage to show the effectiveness of PPS in real application. Unfortunately, he was somewhat less than effective.

I'm not sure there are real examples of people using them under pressure against competant, resistant opponents to make them part of a high-percentage defensive system. (and FWIW, many grappling tournaments allow pressure point manipulation -- since they don't consider it makes a difference at all).

MMM

I'm not a 100% believer in 'pressure points', especially when I'm a westerner trying to see through eastern cultures eyes (liver meridian, heart5.......)

To me a gwai low westerner they are just a representation of where the nerves or other body weak points are expressed near the surface.

I have watched the pressure point marketers quite a bit (Dilman, wally J etc), they are always done under controlled circumstances (logical) and usually involve some awkward double or triple tap techniques ie: stand on third bone of instep with big toe, strike with knuckle to just below left cheek bone.

I try to keep an open mind however and would willing be a guinea pig for this type of thing if they come to town!

I do think you would be in a worse position trying to go for a pressure point strike on a charging grappling opponent! Once he takes that leg out or lifts and dumps you, your playing his ball game and in his court and he'll just lay on ya until he reckons your tired enough to finish off if not before.

I know some people are big on WC purity and bully for them, however to pick up a few basic skills in ground work doesnt take that long and if it saves you long enough to get up and out of the pot mores the better.

Hes a quote that illustrates IMO a conception of pressure points (source = Department of Anatomical Sciences Adelaide Uni Australia):

'Boxers sometimes lose consciousness when a seemingly harmless blow connects with the chin. When the jaw is even slightly open, the force of the punch is transmitted to the base of the skull across a small area of contact from the jawbone. The resultant large stress jolts the brainstem (which is associated with consciousness) where it passes through an opening in the base of the skull, and the boxer will lose consciousness.

When the teeth are clenched , this contact between the jawbone and the base of the skull is lost, and the force passes between the opposed teeth and into the skull bones. This weakens the stresses the brainstem sustains and loss of consciousness is less likley.'

So tell your students to keep their mouth shut and breath through the nose!


Anerlich, could you give me a short run down on the John Will system, I remember he used to be big on shoot starting from the standup fight position and then working takedowns and matt.

Is this still the way he works?

I asking because I finding limitations with judo syllubus wrt no face contact, ankle/leg locks or wrist locking.

[Edmund]

Flaco,

You stated everyone should do BJJ or sambo for a few years. How does the rest of NY - the ones who have no training at all - survive these gangs of wandering BJJ miscreants?

Your perception of reality is that everyone needs a few years of grappling in case these gangs come to the NY bar you and your girlfriend happen to be in. If people are serious about street self defence, they owe it to themselves to go do BJJ (Before it's too late!! Laws don't stop them! They have good lawyers!!).

You should write a pamphlet for Rorion Gracie.
It's great hyperbole. Perfect advertising strategy.

I kinda though they could just advertise on their merits, but I guess they went the other route.

[flaco]

edmund, i clearly stated my opinion. as far as the gangs, that was just an examle of how even street punks are now grappling, so its a common style.

as far as my advise, dont take it, and hopefully one day you will face reality, and run into a big strong opponent, and try your wc. i know many guys with no training in grappling, who will destroy the average wc guy.

wc was once, and still is(in a few schools) a very street real martial art, my point was, that unfortunately, nowadays, its a money maker because of bruce lee fame.

one of my students is 240 pounds, and when we sparr, yes, i have way better technique, and i can get to his side, and pound him, but, he just uses his brute strength, and can pick me up, and he could easily knock me out with one punch. when it gets close with him and i sparring, i take him to the ground, i totally dominate him.

i am no fan of rorion, bjj is not a superior art, however they train ,the way they fight. we can wrestle full out, all day, and tap if we lose, so on the street, we are ready for a fully resistant opponent. whereas most wc schools, will do chi sau, lop sau, etc.

i have seen boztepes lat sau, and this is a good step towatrd reality sparring,so there are good wc guys out there.like i said, if your into wc, and martial arts as a hobby, thats great, then my post wasnt for you. if your into martial arts and wc for reality, then it was for you.

like i sated, and wc guy looking for realistic training, should grapple for at least a blue belt. grappling is just like wc, we grapple blindfolded, and its all feeling.

some of the best wc guys out there train other arts, gary lam is a great thai boxer, boztepe is great at a few arts, william cheung has even done some bjj after waking up. if you are into reality, then wake up.you can at least train against a grappler to see his strategy.

by no means am i always worried when i go out, i just gave an example of a school i know of.my last fight, never went to the ground, however the guy tried to take me down. trust me, ive been training long enough to known something

again, if its your hobby,why reply? and if you disagree, fine, but if your reality is what happens in your dojo, and you dont go outside the box, you will learn the hard way.my post was only intended to help people.if your so uptight, maybe you are a little insecure? maybe deep down, you have some doubt in your effectiveness, otherwise, why be so defensive?

[Grabula]

edmund, flaco has a valid point and you would be wise to pay attention. Ultimately if you are serious about self defense or fighting or what have you, grappling will be something you approach at some point in your martial life if for no other reason then to understand how it works on the basic level. Blowing it off as needless is in my opinion ignorant. I'm not trying to be derogatory, I am just don't think your attitude was appropriate for what flaco was talking about. He made it quite clear that not everyone is suited for grappling. If your a purist or just don't want to do grappling then so be it, but don't fool yourself or try to fool anyone else into believing you have it all under control if for some reason someone takes you to the ground.

[yuanfen]

Ultimately if you are serious about self defense or fighting or what have you, grappling will be something you approach at some point in your martial life
-------------------------------------------------------------
Grabula-

are you going to tell Gin Foon Mak that?
(or is that a differnt Grabula who is going...?
Apologies if thats the case))

[Grabula]

yuanfen, of course not. He knows what he wants to get out of martial arts, and maybe what he has studied has worked for him. However I just consider all aspects of combat a part of the "martial way" as it were and I think anyone who is well rounded or has certain goals in mind should look at all of those aspects. It certainly doesn't hurt.

[reneritchie]

In the old days it wasn't uncommon for someone to know several different types of MA, each with a slightly different focus. Some sifu even encouraged or directed their students to other famous masters to round out their educations. Maybe the Hung Ga guy gets sent to a Lama sifu for some work on long bridge, maybe does some Tai Gik Kuen for a different type of internal work, maybe learns the Wudang Gim and som Sut Gao. Plenty of well known MAists in our time are like that to, even WCK sifu

Its just one approach to overall martial education, same thing as learning a couple languages or different types of mathmatics. Depends on your goals and aptitudes, as always.

The other is to stick to one approach and figure out how to use it to handle different situations. Not just fantasy, but give yourself some real experience in doing it.

[Grabula]

Depends on your goals and aptitudes, as always.

That I think is the key.

As for sticking with one art or going to a few, I don't think there is any wrong way. Any art should be able to address just about any situation, whether you have learned to or have figured it out on your own is another matter completely.

[Alpha Dog]

I thought thinking inside the box was the key.

Or was that yesterday's key?

O -key fine...

[Grabula]

I thought thinking inside the box was the key.

Stop thinking alpha dog and just be the box, right? It's not a box, it's not anything. The ultimate is nothingness. This whole Tao of Alpha Dog things is confusing but I think I am starting to understand....

"There is no box" - ToAD

"Wingchun is about no skill" - ToAD

"Be one with nothingness." - ToAD

[Alpha Dog]

What about the key?

[Grabula]

nothingness?