Internal?

[Mckind13]

Hello all,

I started a thread about relaxation.

I must agree that what I perceived as total relaxation might have been a little off. The reason I think this is; is that sometimes I meet WC people who are completely relaxed but have no intension in there motions nor do they follow basic Wing Chun principles like Jeet or Rush in on loss of contact, etc ... So it is tough to hear on person say completely relaxed and think that they look different then what my experience shows.

Within that same thread, Hendrick brought up some good points regarding internal methods and the need for relaxation to use the structure properly.

So lets see if we can figure out what is
1. What is Internal? Defined not from a systems point of view but from a position of alignment, body use, breath use, chi , etc …
2. What is proper relaxation?
3. Good sources that we can independently read about to understand it better.

Thanks

[Jim Roselando]

Hello David,


This is a very sensative topic you just started! hehehe For some reason this topic always seems to go on and on and etc.. Lets see how it goes!



So lets see if we can figure out what is
1. What is Internal? Defined not from a systems point of view but from a position of alignment, body use, breath use, chi , etc …

Well, Internal and External seem to be a more modern term. I dont believe there was ever a seperate term for each in the old days but indeed now there is. Internal (IMO) can have two catelgories.

1) Noi Gung, which is what Leung Jan refers to in his quote to the Koo Lo people (Lik Yiu Noi Gung). This is about the stylistic Ging that is developed! It is all about martial power that is not noticeable like a weight lifter! We train for years and develop Wing Chun strength even tho it does not require muscle contraction! So, he claerly states that Lik (your natural strength) should be cultivated into Noi (your WC strength (ging)). Lik & Ging!

2) Hay Gung which can still be clasified as part of number one but from what is know (even tho some may disagree which is ok) the teaching of Wong Wah Bo seems to have not preserved this aspect. This is all about the cultivation of Chi thru proper postural structure and breathing.

Now, from a martial pov I would say that both are next to impossible without properly alignment/breathing. Without the structural alignment neither will be attained no matter how many years you practice.

2. What is proper relaxation?

This would be the ability to achieve sung, the ability to avoid useless muscle contraction and the ability to have constant relaxed breathing. Of course ones body cannot even stand unless it was using some form of strength but I think by now we all know the difference between gross and refined which goes back to the Ging. Keep in mind this has nothing to do with the noodle hands! Our WC methods are able to change and the ability to change comes from being relaxed, sensativity, etc.. Also, any tension in the breath or stop of breath will tense the body so deep, slow, smooth and relaxed breathing is key to the development. Part of the Kung Fu (hard work) allows our bodies to take what we are learning and build it into a natural responce from the years of training. You cannot relax with something unless it is a natural part of you! So, include hard work to achive relaxed.

3. Good sources that we can independently read about to understand it better.

Check out the Tao of Yi Chuan. It has a lot of good info. that seems to run parallel to WC's methods just from a different pov.


Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Mckind13


So lets see if we can figure out what is
1. What is Internal? Defined not from a systems point of view but from a position of alignment, body use, breath use, chi , etc …
2. What is proper relaxation?
3. Good sources that we can independently read about to understand it better.

Thanks

1. there is nei chia and nei kung.
nei kung is the cultivation of mind, breathing, qi, internal organs.
2. buy the copy of sound body sound mind. get into the deep. then come back and see how relax you are daily.
3. get a audio tape from gay hendricks about centering and proper breathing. start there before any chinese text.


relax is about cultivating the tee'body' , using relax and tense to generate potential belongs to young 'application'
focus inside is cultivating shen. focus outside is using the yee....

[Phenix]

i think we should called it WHOLESOME instead of internal

[Mckind13]

Thanks Guys:

Hendrick I will find that book.

David

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Phenix



1. there is nei chia and nei kung.
nei kung is the cultivation of mind, breathing, qi, internal organs.
2. buy the copy of sound body sound mind. get into the deep. then come back and see how relax you are daily.
3. get a audio tape from gay hendricks about centering and proper breathing. start there before any chinese text.


relax is about cultivating the tee'body' , using relax and tense to generate potential belongs to young 'application'
focus inside is cultivating shen. focus outside is using the yee....

Hi Hendrik,

I appreciated "Sound Body, Sound Mind" by Dr. Andrew Weil. Now I've got an audio tape by Gay Hendricks on order from Barnes and Noble. I'd still enjoy learning Chinese though.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Dr.Weil is down the road in Tucson- at the University of Arizona-
medical center and has his own program. He is an MD but he has
great understanding of alternative medicine. He is a very busy person but the real McCoy on comparative medical systems.

[Wingman]

2) Hay Gung which can still be clasified as part of number one but from what is know (even tho some may disagree which is ok) the teaching of Wong Wah Bo seems to have not preserved this aspect. This is all about the cultivation of Chi thru proper postural structure and breathing.

Hi Jim,
Is Hay Gung equivalent to Chi Kung? Does Koo Lo WC practice Hay Gung? Can you give us a brief description of Hay Gung?

I'm just curious because most WC don't have Hay Gung (internal training). You said that Hay Gung is not preserved in Wong Wah Bo's teaching. Does this mean that WC originally had internal training but was not preserved and lost?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Wingman,


Hi Jim,
Is Hay Gung equivalent to Chi Kung?

Yes. Same thing.

Does Koo Lo WC practice Hay Gung?

Nope.

Can you give us a brief description of Hay Gung?

Well, I am not the best person to ask about this stuff. I am only a baby with Chi Kung but will do my best to come up with something brief. There are a few forms of Chi Kung but we can probally classify them into Moving and Non-moving. There would be an alignment of the body that is best to allow for circulation and deep relaxed breathing that goes along with it. The Post type exercises would be static postures that are held for certain lengths of time. With the moving sets they could either be short patterns of movements of longer sequences like an entire Taiji set but the further back you go the simpler things seem to be. Only in modern times it seems more is better. Both of the above mentioned ways of cultivation can be done standing or seated. The basic training of course would work the Micro and the more advanced you get would work the Macro. The most natural thing to do would be not think about Micro or Macro and just let things happen naturally. How much owuld you really need to get going to cultivate? IMO just one post would be plenty but it all up to what you want out of it.

I'm just curious because most WC don't have Hay Gung (internal training).

Yes. As most stems from Wong Wah Bo but remember there is also the Noi Gung (Ging) which all WC has. It comes with the tendon changing that goes on from the practice.

You said that Hay Gung is not preserved in Wong Wah Bo's teaching. Does this mean that WC originally had internal training but was not preserved and lost?

I believe so but that does not mean I am correct. I only say this because I believe in Hendrik's writings and because it seems that the different lineages stemming from Wong Wah Bo seem to be pretty similar in art preservation.


Regards,

[Phenix]

Hi Guys,

the term Hay Gung or Qi gung or breath work is not popular in China until after 1910.

As the term Nei Gung or Internal training/ work is popular before that. Thus, it is proper that the WCK doesnt use the term Qi Gung. Otherwise, it will be a fake made up. IMHO.



Nei Gung is a term seems has been replaced by Gi gung.
But Nei Gung has broader meaning. Say TaiJi, some call it Nei Gung Chuan.


The general path of Nei Gung is something like this.


Physical relaxation ---> Mental Silence---> entering into stillness.

Posture structure practice ---> posture link with breathing ----> posture link with Mai ---> Visualization ---->

Mind link with breathing ---> Mind switching let go linking to breathing to link MAi ( the moving heat) ---> Mind linking with Mai

The physical relaxation and mental silence are two foundametal which are very critical. without this, all internal art has difficulty to be implement.

The common kuit in Emei 12 zhuang or Yik kam SLT said that

" Let it spontaneously following the natural the Mai and qi will be smooth".

To do this, one needs to have physical relaxaion and mental silence foundation. otherwise, the spontaneous cannot be implement or achive. Thus, the spontaneous flow in Chi Sau or real life usage cannot be achived. IMHO

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Hendrik,


Great info.!

In Koo Lo WC we do not make use of the term Chi Kung! My teacher always referred to our Ging as Noi Gung! Same goes for some of the quotes we preserve from Leung Jan!

Thanks for sharing!


Regards,