Please help, bit contraversial but i'd like honest opinions

[sweaty_dog]

MasterKiller, I am curious... have you actually killed people? Or is it just something you feel you might have a talent for? The buddha might have died from eating meat, but most chinese buddhist monks would have been expelled from their monasteries for eating it.

This is what Wong Kiew Wit has to say about it;
"Different people may have different views regarding modern Shaolin "monks" eating meat and drinking alcohol. Personally I feel that as eating meat and drinking alcohol are cardinal sins in Mahayana Buddhism, and if they are Mahayana monks, they would be blatantly disrespecting their sacred monastic order by openly flouting its rules. If a monk cannot resist worldly temptations like eating meat and drinking alcohol, he should leave his monkhood."

As far as your comment about Catholic priests being paedophiles goes, that kind of thing is hardly unknown among Buddhists either. Very classy comment, by the way. Personally I take all religions with a BIG grain of salt, regardless of how "exotic" they may seem.

[richard sloan]

WKK is not a Shaolin Monk. Nor does he seem to know much about them, unless you don't know much about them, then he seems to know quite a bit. His grip on reality seems tenuous at best sometimes as well, what with him dispersing clouds and making people move involuntarily by sending his chi to them. I'm not sure why he would be used as a source of commentary on something he is not, or for something he obviously knows little about. I once asked him if he could explain or discuss the merging of Confucian/Buddhist principles in the Shaolin discipleship ceremony and he had no idea what I was talking about. This is easy enough to see on your own, much less if you are a gong fu "Grandmaster" 4th generation removed from your very own Shaolin monk.

He once blasted them for not having cleanly shaved heads, when traditionally they shave once a month. So as you can see he's basically pretty ignorant of Shaolin monks, even though he claims a close martial heritage to one. Since he was never given a dharma name as part of a transmission from this monk, it seems pointless to look to him for commentary.

Complicating the mix is that he doesn't seem to understand the concept of the heshang or wuseng, and there really isn't a clear line of distinction between the two anyway. I've eaten with quite a few monks. Sometimes they eat meat. While Chinese monastic Buddhists are very strict, and may have even changed some of the sutras to favor this strict interpretation of the buddhist canon, buddhism itself is rife with examples of monastics who eat meat. In the other traditions outside of Mahayana, even the Dalai Lama consumes animal flesh. As stated elsewhere, the Buddha died of tainted boar's meat. There is some research to suggest it was a truffle or something that was only called Boar's something or other, but that view ignores the role of the Mythic Boar. You should try to be more open and not so inflexible.

Bungle you get around don't you!? Russbo wasn't enough eh, heh heh heh...

From within the context of Shaolin temple, there is no contradiction of practicing gong fu and practicing Ch'an Buddhism. It's pretty much as simple as that. Ch'an Chuan Yi Ti.

The author seems to make it out that monks train to be fighters and murderers, and that just is not the case.

[sweaty_dog]

Hey one Shaolin guy is much the same as another to me... I think I might have just quoted kung fu's answer to Mat Furey/Ashida Kim though! Mind you, I have heard more than one person say that due to the temple being burnt down and all the monks chased out so often, the tradition is stronger outside the temple than in it now.

Anyway, I think there are a lot of people who love anything Shaolin related because it is far away enough to let them project all their ideas of "oriental mysticism" onto it... they can be enlightened and a cool tough guy all at once. Like I said, I take all religions with a grain of salt, especially the ones that don't follow their own principles and have something to sell. I would have doubts about a bunch of people claiming to be the descendents of the Knights of St John and teaching genuine crusade-era sword technique, same goes for Shaolin. Not that it is all fake, just possibly diluted and wu shu-ised. Mind you the tendon changing classic is OK... although I prefer Taoist chi gung.

[MasterKiller]

MasterKiller, I am curious... have you actually killed people? Or is it just something you feel you might have a talent for?

"Shaolin MasterKiller" is the American title for "Enter the 36th Chamber." Gordon Lui, the guy in my avatar, is the actor, and is usually referred to as "The Master Killer" in U.S. articles about KF flicks. He also starred in "Return to the 36th Chamber", or better known in America as "Return of the MasterKiller."

My name has no bearing on whether or not I feel affluent in taking human life. It is an ode to the movie.

As far as your comment about Catholic priests being paedophiles goes, that kind of thing is hardly unknown among Buddhists either. Very classy comment, by the way.

What do you expect from someone calling themself MasterKiller?

Poetry?

Haiku?

Perhaps a novel?

[bungle]

yep, i try to get as much info on a subject from as many different sources as possible.

Sweaty. You make a good point but on the other hand if these monks are training their minds to such a high level i'm sure they would have little trouble using their ingenuity to make sure the shaolin art is passed on faithfully.

That doesn' t mean, of course, that their students wouldn't corrupt the system..It's all just one big confusing mess...

I am still waiting for an expert opinion on barefoot zen though. Still havn't had one and i'm still waiting for one....

Anyone know any other sites good for this sort of info?

[sweaty_dog]

"What do you expect from someone calling themself MasterKiller?"

I expect them to be really good at killing people.


"Sweaty. You make a good point but on the other hand if these monks are training their minds to such a high level i'm sure they would have little trouble using their ingenuity to make sure the shaolin art is passed on faithfully"

The way I see it is, the teacher who knows all the details gets an axe in the head, and the half taught student runs off then comes back later and has to start teaching because he is suddenly the most qualified. I have heard that something like that happened in the cultural revolution, but who knows.

[r.(shaolin)]

From the 400's onwards Northern Chinese Buddhism cultivated a close relations with Imperial governments in particularly with the so called foreign dynasties including the Qing. This was particularly true of the, large public monasteries in the north like Shaolin Si. Buddhism in great centers like Lo-yang, or close to imperial capitals tended to be more orthodox and stable. A further important distinguishing feature of monasteries like Shaolin, was that they were designated official places of worship.Subversive secret societies such as Hung Pang, Ching Pang, Hung Men, etc. have traditionally made much of their alleged connections to the Shaolin fighting monks. Largely their stories were fabrications with little or no basis in fact, but spread for political motives. The orthodox Chan Buddhists were in fact critical of the rebellious Maitreya societies like the White Lotus. Although, during the latter half of the Qing dynasty much imperial support for Buddhist monastism was withdrawn, official monasteries like Shaolin, continued getting imperial support. Records even show Shaolin monks involved in military action alongside governmental troops during the Qing dynasty.

One other note. Manchu factions all had to work with Chinese officials favored northerners. In turn northern Chinese tended to protect their dominant position by trying to prevent southerners from gaining important posts in the central government.

[bungle]

thanks for the reply r.(shaolin). You seem to know your stuff. What bearing do you think this had on shaolin kung fu? I gather that the general opinion and especially of kung fu practioners is that the shaolin temple has an unbroken line of shaolin fighting monks delivering shaolin to the hands of the public today.

Do you think it is at all likely that modern day shaolin is just an amalgination of various kung fu styles and that real shaolin was lost long ago or discovered by the author of barefoot zen?

I'm not sure why i'm so obsessed with this idea but for some reason it is a problem i just have to solve in my head. I'm going to read barefoot zen again and make notes to see if you guys can answer any of my niggling doubts. Thanks for any help.

[Laughing Cow]

Bungle.

Do some research on Buddhist priest and their doings in both Japan and Thailand.
Some of the things will shock you more than a bit.
Monks drivings BMW's, having sex, etc.

They are still human and as monks strive to become a Buddha but are held back by their humanity and wordly desires.

Simply doning a robe does not make one into a saint or better person.

After that look at the behaviour of some christian monks in Israel who guard old shrines.
Playing pranks on monks of a different sects and having fights are just for starters.

Cheers.

[bodhitree]

Do some research on Buddhist priest and their doings in both Japan and Thailand.
Some of the things will shock you more than a bit.
Monks drivings BMW's, having sex, etc.
Laughing Cow

And Shaolin Monks on Conan O'Brian, what the freak is that!

[MasterKiller]

and that real shaolin was lost long ago or discovered by the author of barefoot zen?

I highly doubt if the author of barefoot zen is the one true holder of Shaolin heritage. Maybe he should contact Sin The' and they could hold a pizzing contest.

[GeneChing]

The funny thing about Shaolin Temple today to me is that Kung Fu people are so fixated on the monks. Right now, there are only about 200 monks in the order. Right now, there are 80 registered schools in Dengfeng - on average these schools have 500 students each. Taguo topped out at 13,000 students last summer. Taguo has almost a 1000 teachers on staff - none of whom are monks. These are the folk masters. While the Shaolin monks are certainly interesting, if you are a kung fu student, the folk masters are even more interesting. People like Wong Kiew Kit, Sin Te and pretty much any Shaolin 'master' fall under what Shoalin would call folk masters. There is a tremendous heritage there. No one denies that (well, maybe in certain instances, but I'm speaking in general terms.) In fact, if it weren't for the folk masters, Shaolin Temple would not be what it is today. Monks exchange with folk masters, folk masters with monks. Everyone works towards unravelling the mystery of Shaolin kung fu. Only the most brash would claim that they are the one true holder of the lineage.

When were the monks on Conan O'Brien? I can't stand that guy...

[r.(shaolin)]

From a brief look at “Barefoot Zen” on Amazon.com, it appears that the book is proposing a popular idea that is not supportable by the known facts. Historical evidence points to a pragmatic reason for the development of martial arts at Shaolin. Fundamentally, that pragmatic reason was the defense of the monastery. A combinations of factors worked together to make the Shaolin Monastery a source of highly developed martial arts expertise.

r.

[shaolinboxer]

Another pragmatic reason was that when China was under foreign control, military elite often shaved their heads and hid in monastaries to avoid the death sentance.

[David Jamieson]

Personally I feel that as eating meat and drinking alcohol are cardinal sins in Mahayana Buddhism, and if they are Mahayana monks, they would be blatantly disrespecting their sacred monastic order by openly flouting its rules.

just a side note.

I do not think that the Shaolin are Mahayana anymore.
And what they were before was a new school "Ch'an" that was built out of the Mahayana school and teh Dhayana exercises prescribed by that school.

I would also second that WKK is not a shaolin monk.

Shaolin is once again a different from what it was before.

cheers