Do you ever exert full physical force in internal styles?

[atip]

When you strike an enemy, do you ever exert your full physical force? It seems that internal arts focus on slow and harmonic movements rather than striking as hard as you can and screaming your magick word.

But when I read about iron palm (or any other iron training for that matters) it require you to exert full physical impact - either striking your palm as hard as you can at a bag or striking an object at parts of your body. It does not sound like internal arts to me. I know Thai kickboxers who contion their body in a similar way too. They toughen up their legs and arms to withstand blow bit hitting themselves with a bottle. They also use their special massage oil. They don't claim anything internal about it, yet it appears to be effective as well.

What does chi have anything to do with this? What do most people here think? Do you think of chi as just some philosophical way to imagine or visualize certain movements, or do you really think of it as internal energy?

[Laughing Cow]

atip.

Do some research on "Fa jing" & TCC/TJQ in general it should help answer your questions and might help get rid of a few stereotypes you got.

There are plenty of Videos online that show TJQ/TCC done at full speed.

[ZIM]

When you strike an enemy, do you ever exert your full physical force?

Well, yeah. But you have to define your terms differently, ie. what you mean by full, i might call empty or dead.

Do you think of chi as just some philosophical way to imagine or visualize certain movements, or do you really think of it as internal energy?

Do you have any more categories? Seriously

[Repulsive Monkey]

You never ever exert full physical force in Taiji, not unless you're doing it incorrectly.

Chi is not a conceptual idea, you don't imagine it or fantasize about it....you use it.Period.

If you don't use it you're not doing Taiji.

[Daredevil]

How do you strike someone with Chi?

I hit people with jings, with energy, with force.

[dz]

*ksssssch*

*wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle wriggle ....... *


Oh, just an open can of worms.

[shaolin kungfu]

My chi blast will destroy all of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[atip]

So most of you don't believe in
1) The blast of chi?
2) The blast of chi that projects out of the body?
3) The blast of chi that can be extend 3 inches to 3 feet out of the body?

So you don't believe in the fact that some master can knock another person out without physical impact?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by atip
So most of you don't believe in
1) The blast of chi?
2) The blast of chi that projects out of the body?
3) The blast of chi that can be extend 3 inches to 3 feet out of the body?

So you don't believe in the fact that some master can knock another person out without physical impact?

If I believe those I also believe that I can turn into Super Saiyan and that I am called Vegita.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I use the appropriate and necessary force to accomplish the task at hand.. i am not concerned with the amount, just the result..

Chi blast?... i have not experienced it, i have seen "masters" do it to their own students.. i have begged them to "blast" me so i could experience it firsthand but they each refused citing potential harm to me.. That being said, i do not dismiss it.. i simply work on the more practical aspects of my own training while hoping someday to be instructed in this elusive aspect of Tai Chi.. I do believe that FaJing is a valid aspect of Tai Chi, but it is an intricate orchestration of conditioning, alignment, and subtle energy work akin to QiGong.. too often people mistake sensations of "chi" movement with intentional use of "chi", there is a major difference..

Be well..

[BAI HE]

THE WATER MARGIN BY DAN DOCHERTY



So it has come to pass. On Friday July 18th, I went with three students to Newport at the invitation of Paul Brewer to encounter his master, Dr. Shen Hong-xun. We arrived when the course had already started. We entered an upstairs hall where Dr. Shen was seated on a podium behind a table, facing his audience; also seated there on his right was a Caucasian gentleman and on his left, Jan Willem Van Overdam, from Holland.



I approached the podium and the room fell silent. I said who I was and indicated that I had the money for the course in my moneybelt (£312 per person i.e. almost £1250). I then spoke in Mandarin to Dr. Shen saying that he had said he had empty force, I told him to use it, because I was coming, again I told him to use it. I then slowly advanced and climbed up on the podium, standing over Dr. Shen. I then poured a bit more than 1 litre of Evian water over his head and shoulders, drenching him. He and Jan Willem raised their hands to try to stop me but were unsuccessful. When the bottle was empty I left with my students. I heard some people hurl imprecations at me. We drove off immediately to avoid any possible conflict.



I know some people were upset at what happened. I know Paul Brewer and others like Jan Willem and I have respect for their Tai Chi Chuan knowledge, to the extent that my actions upset them, I regret it. Dr. Shen, however, has made many claims directly and through his students about his ability to use empty force:-



"Without physical contact, and up to a distance of some metres, a person can feel and receive force created by my movements. This force can push them, make them roll on the ground - - even out of the hall's exit."



Dr. Shen has said people practice Push Hands and San Shou thinking these are Tai Chi fighting methods and goes on:-



"Whether or not the above is correct I do not want to discuss in this article. However, people do understand that everything is constantly evolving, that there is always a development from a basic to a high level and from a high level to an even higher level."



I discussed Dr. Shen's claims with experienced instructors from different schools, we were sceptical as to his ability to use empty force on someone who was not a true believer, we also were somewhat offended by the tone of the claims which seemed to suggest that people like us who didn't employ empty force were at a lower level than those who do. I wrote in to TCC magazine making what I hoped were mildly humorous remarks about the art of Ty-phoo in relation to empty force.



The response to the letter was an invitation from Paul Brewer to me and Rob Morton to attend Dr. Shen's course in Newport. The invitation was accompanied with an article by the Doctor which contained photos of him using empty force to roll a man out of a hall.



I resolved to go to Newport to see if Dr. Shen could do the things he said to me personally. Rob Morton accompanied me with two other students, one of whom is a trained para medic, we brought medical supplies with us in case someone was hurt.



My own position on empty force is that I am sceptical. It is impossible to prove that it doesn't exist. The most that can be done is to show that at a specific time and place in a specific set of circumstances empty force was not used effectively. How to do it ?



I did not want to hit or attack Dr. Shen as he is both older and much smaller than me, but he claimed higher powers than I possess. I looked at the Tao Te Ching; it says:-



"Under Heaven nothing is as soft and submissive as water, yet to attack what is hard and strong, nothing can beat it. For there is nothing with which you can replace it.

The weak overcoming the strong,

the soft overcoming the hard.

Under Heaven there is no-one who does not know of this,

but no-one can do it."



So I did it.



It was evident from Dr Shen's reaction that he did not enjoy being soaked in public and it is possible therefore to infer that if he could have prevented it, he would have. Like God, like many things empty force exists if you believe in it - it exists for you and other true believers not for pagans. I did not feel any empty force from Dr. Shen or anyone else, perhaps I will one day, if I become sensitive enough. I believe that Dr. Shen has a wealth of knowledge and experience in Tai Chi Chuan and other aspects of Chinese culture which he is able and willing to impart to others. I don't believe that he can use empty force on me. I am a pagan. "

[Repulsive Monkey]

All I can say is that I was there at that inccdent, and that I am shamed to admit I am part of the UK Tai Chi community that houses the likes of Dan Docherty.
His actions equalled nothing. His huge presumption of "if he could have prevented it, he would have" is low level thought. Dan and his henchmen just walked right in in the middle of the class and he demanded Dr Shen basically to do his stuff whilst interupting the course. His two students looked like they were ready for fight whatever happened to which it dictated the kind of animosity they were coming in with anyway.
So, there you have it Dan Docherty threw water over Dr Shen because he thought it was a valid means to determine whether he did or did not have Lin Kong Jin. How pathetic is that!!!
I'm not on Dr Shen's side or his student, but I have had the opportunity to attend some of his courses and know that he has an enviable lineage Tai Chi-wise, but the fact is, is that Dan Docherty in my eyes, and I think a lot of other peoples eyes, made a complete prat out himself by performing a childish act which one would compare to that of two children in a playground.
If that's how he goes around asessing the validity of people's skills by childishly, and on demand, trying to enrage others then fair enough.
I'm not saying whether Lin Kong Jin is what it's cracked up to be, I do believe that from an energetic point of you there is a lot one can do withyout physical touch, but if that inccident proved in Dan's mind that it provided conclusive evidence, just because decided NOT to perform, then hey, I admire his investigative and methodical techniques!!!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Dr. Shen responded appropriately.. he remained calm in the face of militant ignorance.. No one has the right to assault another whether it be by water or force.. Dan Docherty, if this is a true accounting, demonstrated an indefensible ethical position... and, proved nothing aside from his own lack of good judgment..

Be well..

[Vapour]

"i have not experienced it, i have seen "masters" do it to their own students.. i have begged them to "blast" me so i could experience it firsthand but they each refused citing potential harm to me.. That being said, i do not dismiss it.."

well if one doesn't immediately sense fraud in this only-my-student-can-be-blasted-with-ki demonstration....

Usually, people who get money ripped off from this type of ki trick are not particularly poor or suffering from terminal illness so I can sort of tolerate it. On the other hand, once someone start to pry on people's desperation by claiming that certain ki practice can cure cancer or AIDS, I might throw a bottle filled with ****.

What Dan Doherty did (throwing water) was legally actionable offense. However, I have no problem with Dan walking into such seminar and calling the guy a fraud, (that is if the guy claim he can blast someone without touch).

On the other hand, one of technical advisors of our school do ki blast as his favourite demonstration trick. The guy place both of hand on your chest and then, BANG. You literally flew on the wall. He did it with quite big English guy. When this English guy's back hit the wall, his feet was about 20 cm above the floor. The more amazing thing is that you can touch his arm while he do this demonstration and his arm rarely move.

Because high level practioner can manage to blast off the opponent without appearing to do anything, it *looks* as if some sort of unseen energy was involved in such demonstration but that is not the case. The have extremely efficient body mechanics to transfer kinetic energy.

If anyone want to prove me wrong, please contact below link.

http://www.randi.org/research/

If you don't desire money, you can donate it to charitable cause.

[Former castleva]

Good one Vapour.

But you have to remember,ad hoc hypothesis is charlatan´s favourite resort.

What was done to this Dr.Shen sounds actually very reasonable,if a strange way to ridicule someone who seriously says ridiculous things.