Training Weapons

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller


Mine weighs 23 lbs.

MK, where do did you get your Kwan dao?

[MasterKiller]

MK, where do did you get your Kwan dao?

It was custom-made.

[brainwars]

Hi all,
I am trying to find out what other people think about the following-
regarding weapons training (in particular the broadsword) is it best to start early on in my training so when the time comes, i will be familiar in the ways of the sword, or; is it best to stick to the basics until they are spot on, or ; maybe somewhere in between ?
i know weapons usually are taught to the well experienced, but i am asking for personal opinions.
Thankyou in advance!

[GLW]

Start early...use live steel with a razor edge.

Then, you either succeed of people call you Stumpy....

Seriously, you should have stance and balance basics first. Also a basic knowledge of how to move your body and combine arms, legs, torso, head, etc... as a single unit.

After that, I would say don't start on weapon routines...but rather spend a long long time on weapon basic techniques. I eve prefer that after the basic techniques are known, to go to two person drills with the weapon where practical (and where students have the interest - hard to take a group of Taijiquan people interested in the health benefits mainly and FORCE them to do 2 person sword application drills... )

All the while continuing on with barehand....

[cjurakpt]

I would argue that, based on my experience, barehand training has minimal impact on weapons training; in other words, there's no reason not to start it early on, no such thing as "too soon"; frankly, you could even train it without training barehand and be fine (you don't see too many successful fencers attributing their skill to their emptyhand training now, do you? or lacrosse players spending much time learning to play without a stick...); the bigger issue is, how well can you absorb learning more than one skill set at a time? for some people that's easy, for others it's too much - but again, I wouldn't say you needed skill in one to be able to do the other...

I also agree that for weapons training (not unlike like empty hand in this case), it's better to start on two-person drills sooner rather than later; to wit, when I started teaching stick fighting I used to have people go through it the same way I learned it - in the air; at one poitn i switched it around and started partner training right away, 8 AM, day one: not only was it more interesting, people's mechanics were better sooner...

[GLW]

exactly...what is need from barehand training is how to stand up, step, move the upper body without thowing the lower body out of balance, etc... basic skills that are universal to any martial activity - not barehand or weapon.

Fencers drill the lunge and stepping - and put the hands in position for it...sometimes with and sometimes without the sword....

However, if you don't have the leg strength for stance work and moving drills, that is the place to start.

[cjurakpt]

Fencers drill the lunge and stepping - and put the hands in position for it...sometimes with and sometimes without the sword....

my old Hungarian saber fencing teacher would stand and drop an apple and you had to lunge out and catch it...that was one of the less sadistic things he had up his sleeve...

[SanHeChuan]

The problem with weapons training is that some people do need to be taught general coordination first, because the risk of injury is greater.

You see it in every school, just with empty hand.

There are people who walk in a look pretty good, and people who have been there for years and still look like they are flailing.

personally I'm not for babying people, I say throw them in with the wolves. If they get hurt, it'll tuff'n them up.

For more responsible people, start slower, keep more students, and see slower progress.

if your capable, why wait?

[David Jamieson]

they make wooden practice weapons for that reason.

[scholar]

I've known people to benefit from weapons as early as 6 months to a year into training. As above, this is after stance training and form work coordination basics have been drilled.

Spear is a good way to start if the student is in relatively good shape already. It is demanding; vigorous spear work conditions the upper body, shoulders and (esp.) wrists, but it can be hard on the ceiling, walls, and furniture. If there isn't room for the spear in the classroom, then broadsword is my next choice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

FMA start weapons training first and H2H after, there are pro's and con's to that, one of them being that the power generation of an armed system is not the same as for an empty handed system.

But weapons training gives you a unique perspective of close quarter fighting.

[David Jamieson]

Ok, so enough about outmoded H2H, we all know that to be king, you need to know how to operate weapons and pugilism is...well, not so important.

What kind of work do you do with weapons?
What kind of weapons do you work with?

I currently keep the following in tune:

Rifle skills. Still got em, check em on average twice a year. For an average dude, I can get good hits at distance.

Compound & recurve bow skills. Still got those too. I am of the opinion that my skills here are above average and that has everything to do with starting at a very young age (5).

Long weapons - I practice quarterstaff and halberd with regularity. The staffs I use are eyebrow height rattan and one hand over head height oak. Simple techniques are preferable. The halberd I use is of course highly antiquated, but, It's fun and I enjoy it. I bought a kwan do from Gene some years back and that's the one I use. It's fairly heavy, somewhere close to 30 lbs or so and provides a test of strength.

Short weapons - I prefer butterfly knives (wu dip do and not balisong). These are double weapons and I enjoy working with them. they demand co-ordination from you and mindfulness in their use. A great weapon to train with that has side effect benefits as well.

Swords - Love swords, all traditions. It's difficult to participate in partner work with swords unless I take up fencing again. Which I may very well do this coming year. I do it now, but not with the regularity I would enjoy. I would enjoy further study of saber combat and will keep my hand in with the finesse of the other rapiers.

Anyone else keep up with weapons training?
Do you use forms?

I have to say, I dropped forms after absorbing principles of the weapons. The forms are interesting, but they aren't practical in many ways once you have learned weapon retention and some footwork. After that, it is the principles that really guide the usage of the weapon in a logical manner.

I still know all the weapons forms I was taught and have learned and will use them to transmit to someone else one day probably.

so, any thoughts?

[kungfublow]

I was waiting for this discussion to come up as I was thinking about it last night. Good timing David!

I started out learning forms for Bo, Broadsword, Double Broadsword, 3 section staff. I have moved on to some others since then but these are my best for sure.

I got bored with forms rather quickly. They helped me get used to the weapon and understand some of the strikes and blocks but I don't think it gave me any real combat ability. So I decided to create this myself because I wasn't getting anyting from my sifu over and above the form. Luckily I had a friend who was a knight at Medival Times. Funny I know! But he had a love for sword play and was using Kendo Shinai to spar with people. I jumped on this and cut down one of the handles to resemble a broadsword. Now it's not perfect and of course this is not full blown combat but I feel this kind of sparring has taught me more than the forms could. It's amazing how the blocks and strikes just come out in sparring the same way they do in the form. It's also nice to play around with what works and what doesn't. It's like any hand to hand sparring. You go almost full out with the mindset that you don't want to hurt just make contact and let him know you could have hurt him.

Does any one else practice in this way? If you don't I say get some sticks and start hitting.

[Yum Cha]

If you're not training full contact with resisting opponents and loaded/edged weapons.....


Then your probably still alive to read this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Impact weapons: Short, middle and long stick
Edge: Folding and fixed blades, curved and straight sword.
Combination of the above.
Firearms: I don't carry or use them anymore but in regards to handgun I still train how to get at them and keep people from getting at them.
Marksmanship is somewhat irrelevant for handgun training.
It's been years since I fired a rifle.
How do I train the edge and impact weapons?
I train the impact weapons VS a padded bag or a hanging dummy, same for the blunt training knives and swords but I always add test cutting whenever I train edge weapons.