Leung Bik

[planetwc]

Thought I would start a separate thread on Leung Bik to allow Victor to continue his TWC training/technique thread on it's core content.

To that end...

In my opinion there are several questions at hand.

1) Did Leung Bik exist and did he end up living in Hong Kong?

2) Did Leung Jan modify his Wing Chun to teach Chan Wah Shun only a limited or modified version of the system? Did he in turn teach a different Wing Chun to his son(s)?

3) Did Leung Bik meet Yip Man and decide to teach the "unmodified" or "true" or core Wing Chun to Yip Man, who was not a family member, AND was a student of the man who his father wanted to withhold the real Wing Chun principles and techniques from?

If so, why teach this complete version to a student of his purported rival?

4) Did Leung Bik teach a secret or separate form of Wing Chun to Yip Man, under constraints to keep this training secret from any future students?

[planetwc]

In some articles onYip Man and Leung Bik
it is said (by Yip Ching) that at the purported meeting and defeat of Yip Man by Leung Bik, Yip Man had completed the Wing Chun system to the level of Chum Kiu and had not learned Bil Jee.

"At this point the old man asked Ip Man to demonstrate the Biu Gee form. Not wanting the old man to know he didn’t know the Biu Gee form, Ip Man said, "I really don't feel like showing you the form.""


If we presume then that Leung Bik actually did exist and did meet Yip Man in Hong Kong, then it would seem that Yip Man would have completed his training in Wing Chun with Leung Bik by learning Bil Jee, the dummy and the weapons from Leung Bik.

Those would be a fairly significant portion of training, and quite advanced as in most schools those are the advanced portions of the training.

"Leung Bik lived with Ip Man for five years and learned the entire system of Wing Chun. Through out his life, Ip Man referred to Leung Bik as Si Pak. Even though both of his kung fu teachers had the same kung fu, they both had different teaching styles. Chan Wa Shun was a relatively uneducated man whose metaphors and understanding were more grounded in the earth, in the common man's language. On the other hand, Leung Bik was very educated and his metaphors and understanding were shaped by philosophy. His understanding of the principles of Wing Chun was deeper and more refined than his kung fu younger brother Chan Wa Shun. When Leung Bik died, Ip Man returned to Fatshan to help his kung fu brothers with the knowledge he had gained in Hong Kong."

This description mentions nothing of teaching held back from Chan Wah Shun, but rather the opportunity to learn from a better educated si-pak who could communicate concepts in a more sophisticated fashion AND who completed his training in the rest of the system.

[planetwc]

Let us continue our presumption that Leung Jan did have a younger son named Leung Bik, who moved to Hong Kong, and encountered, then taught for 4 years a young Yip Man.

According to TWC history, Leung Bik taught Yip Man the traditional Wing Chun system, as opposed to the modified version which his father taught Chan Wah Shun.

Chan Wah Shun was somehow taught differently from the time he joined Leung Jan's class, and during the entire time he would interact with his fellow classmates and teacher he NEVER observed them using the signature techniques of traditional wing chun in their chi sao or even in gor sao or challenge matches of Leung Jan.

This also meant that when Chan Wah Shun would chi sao with his teachers sons, or with his teacher, they never had to resort to the key principles of blind side attacks for a larger opponent as Chan Wah Shun was known for being a large strong man.

The rationale here then, is that during the entire period of time that Chan Wah Shun was training, sparring and fighting at Leung Jan's school he would never have triggered a response from either his teacher or Leung Bik which would have brought out the "traditional" Wing Chun movements and principles?

That if he trained there hard and often, as a next door neighbor, Leung Jan and Leung Bik would have had to have found either addtional time or a different place to train traditional Wing Chun so that Chan Wah Shun would not see it or learn it.

When would this training have occurred?

Why would this have happened?

a) Because Wing Chun was a secret family art not to be passed in total to non-family members?

b) Because Chan Wah Shun was a better student than Leung Bik?

If there were no OTHER students in Leung Jan's school, that also implies then that there were only 4 people doing Wing Chun in the world.

1. Leung Jan
2. Leung Bik
3. Leung Jan's other son
4. Chan Wah Shun

If it was Leung Jan's intention to not teach outside his family, why then did he teach Wing Chun when he retired to Koo Lo?

If the Leung family tradition is to only teach family member the complete system, then that would imply that if Leung Jan's great grandson does his family's Wing Chun, then he too would have the secret traditional version.

[planetwc]

If there is only one traditional Wing Chun system and all others are modified, then what about the other lineages of Wing Chun?

We NOW know that there are other systems of Wing Chun which do not spring from Leung Jan.

Sum Nung Wing Chun, from Yuen Kay Shan
Chi Sim, currently under Andreas Hoffman
Pan Nam
Chu Chong Man

Spring to mind.

Additionally, Leung Jan himself upon retiring to Koo Lo village, his ancestral home, taught Wing Chun there until his death. This tradition has been carried on by his own family and the Fung family of Koo Lo.

Why is it then that many of these systems have the same or similar stances, training platforms and sets?

Are they all modified systems of Wing Chun?

How is this possible when they do not spring from the teachings of Leung Jan?

[planetwc]

Leung Jan's other disciples (aside from any of his sons):

Chan Wah Shun aka Jiao Chin Wah
Lo Kwai aka Chu Yuk Kwai
Leung Kei aka Lau Man Kei

[reneritchie]

Let's try to go through this methodically,

1) According to most accounts there was a Leung Bik. In a one account, there was not, and in another, he didn't end up in HK, but in the common Yip Man lineage account, there was and he did. This then becomes a "we don't know"

2) The answer to the first part of this question, based on everything available to date, is "probably no". Given that there are other lineages from the Red Junk, and from Wong Wah-Bo, and these broadly match what Chan Wah-Shun taught, it is "very unlikely" anyone other than the common originating source (Red Junks) could have formed it. As to whether or not Leung Jan's sons learned different WCK, or any WCK, this again varies into a "we don't know" but based on the same common available information, it seems "more likely" they learned the same WCK as everyone else.

3) Since accounts on this vary within the Yip Man family (many saying yes, a few saying no) it is another "we don't know". Evidence seems split fairly evenly down the middle, making it impossible to determine likelihood, IMHO, and lacking any third party coroboration (ie. lineages from Leung Bik not through Yip Man) that's all we're left with.

4) As above "very unlikely" although we can't rule out the possibility Leung Bik might have either learned or created another version of WCK after leaving Foshan, and taught that to Yip Man (the culture of face causing him to attribute it to his father regardless of its real source).

On the Yip Ching derived story, if its true Yip Man only learned up to Chum Kiu from Chan Wah-Shun and Ng Jung-So (possible, as Ng seemed notoriously stingy with teaching material), and learned the Biu Jee and the rest from Leung Bik, it makes it "very unlikely" Leung Bik taught him anything other than typical Foshan WCK since the Biu Jee Yip Man taught his HK students, including Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, etc. is very, very close to the Biu Jee from the Fok Bo-Chuen/Yuen Kay-San lineage. Had Leung Bik taught anything else, the only Biu Jee Yip Man could have passed on would have been closer to William Cheung's.

As to the different education/comprehension levels of CWS vs. LB, this part has never made much sense, unless CWS was completely illiterate or daft. WCK theory is not particle mechanics, most have us have read the Kuen Kuit and been taught the theory, most of us have kung fu uncles that range from tradesmen to college educated, do we see this reflected today? I have sibaksuk who were butchers and ironworkers, and sibaksuk who were engineers or university grads, and they all have the same basic knowledge.

Besides, in the story, Yip Man was still young, and only beginning his education, would the education level of his sifu vs. sibak make that big a difference at that point in his life?

WRT the TWC story,not only did CHan Wah-Shun never notice the Leung family doing anything different, he somehow failed to notice that what he was learning was very different from what he had been "peeking" at through the fence.

WRT the other lineages, Chu Chong-Man is part of the Weng Chun handed down by Wai Yan to Andreas Hoffmann, and Pan Nam is in large part Leung Jan derived (via Chan Yiu-Min/Jiu Chao and Lai Hip-Chi). In parallel, we have Fok Bo-Chuen/Yuen Kay-San, and the Cho family, none of which have any connection to Leung Jan, but are very similar in core, and Koo Lo, which decends from Leung Jan's later teachings.

Since, as mentioned, these are remarkably similar in core to Yip Man WCK, it seems "unlikely in the extreme" that Leung Jan could have "modified" anything into them. He may have learned something additional that was different (another system/branch), or created something, but it looks fairly certain what is now practiced as Sum Nung, Yip Man, Koo Lo, Cho, etc. are what WCK was from the Red Junks.

So, while its possible Leung Jan, Leung Bik, Yip Man, or William Cheung either learned a divergent branch or different system, or came up with a different system, the standard story of Yip Man's WCK being "modified" from something else is unsupportable.

[yuanfen]

While waiting on Victor's answer to David-if any:

1) Did Leung Bik exist and did he end up living in Hong Kong?

((Dont know. Does not matter. Ip Man has mentioned learning from him. Given the excellence of Ip man's wing chun- good enough for me that he has mentioned his sources. I would be surprised if "Did leung Bik exist" becomes a peer reviewed article in a decent history journal.))

2) Did Leung Jan modify his Wing Chun to teach Chan Wah Shun only a limited or modified version of the system? Did he in turn teach a different Wing Chun to his son(s)?

((As NTC pointed out-"modification" in varying degrees is part of teaching and learning except for robots."))

3) Did Leung Bik meet Yip Man and decide to teach the "unmodified" or "true" or core Wing Chun to Yip Man, who was not a family member, AND was a student of the man who his father wanted to withhold the real Wing Chun principles and techniques from?

If so, why teach this complete version to a student of his purported rival?

((IMO - the TWC version of the Leung Bik saga is part of TWC marketing. It is possible quite separtely from TWC to maintain that Ip man synthesized his wing chun based on what he learned from differnt people and his own experience and evolution.What's the big deal?))

4) Did Leung Bik teach a secret or separate form of Wing Chun to Yip Man, under constraints to keep this training secret from any future students?

((Separate from the TWC story-see NTC's post on so called "secrets". Teachers teach in specific contexts to specific students- no sudden enlightment on the whole enchilada. Different students take with them different aspects of a teachers teaching-in many fields and specially in wing chun- which is not for
uniform training of privates on how to march, drill and hold a rifle))
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rene sez:
it makes it "very unlikely" Leung Bik taught him anything other than typical Foshan WCK since the Biu Jee Yip Man taught his HK students, including Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, etc. is very, very close to the Biu Jee from the Fok Bo-Chuen/Yuen Kay-San lineage.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rene- "likely" etc seems to be a couldbeen approah to history.
Induction is tricky business like causality...
couldabeen- gasp- that other biu jee was an imitation of
Ip man or his students biu jee?
Things can look similar but not be the same....including biu jee
dynamics.

BTW form the TWC thread- the Cheung conception of the central
is not really the same as what some call the center line- the tyranny of words.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally- I am not sure what we are getting out of the same old same old Leung Bik "issues" specially the TWC version.
Victor has given the TWC version- one can accept, reject or modify and move on.......

[reneritchie]

Rene- "likely" etc seems to be a couldbeen approah to history.
Induction is tricky business like causality...
couldabeen- gasp- that other biu jee was an imitation of
Ip man or his students biu jee?
Things can look similar but not be the same....including biu jee
dynamics..

No joy, it really can't in this context. In the context of TWC, if Yip Man only learned SNT and CK from CWS, and learned BJ from LB, the only BJ he would have would be LB's, which would be the one William Cheung does, so if anyone else copied it from Yip Man, it would also be the one William Cheung does. It isn't. (Now it is possible that all of Yip Man's other students went and copied the "modified " version from another lineage, and Yip Man didn't mind... but that doesn't seem very likely, does it?)

Ip Man has mentioned learning from him.

We don't know that. The only evidence we have of this is the Mok Poi-On interview, which at first I thought was conclusive Yip Man did mention it, but now have heard that it was actually a Leung Ting interview in Yip Man's name, and as Leung Ting himself has said, he was very fond of Lee Man (who Wang Kiu maintains came up with the Leung Bik story) and listened to his stories all the time.

It is possible quite separtely from TWC to maintain that Ip man synthesized his wing chun based on what he learned from differnt people and his own experience and evolution.What's the big deal?))

In that context, none, especially if he learned from his sifu, sihing, and sibak, and all their WCK was very similar, it makes no difference at all. However, in the TWC story context, it would eliminate one of the most devisive elements in the Yip Man family (the idea of "modified" and "traditional" and all surrounding hoopla would be moot).

[reneritchie]

Note: It could theoretically be possible that Yip Man learned both a "modified " and "traditional " version of BJ from LB, but it doesn't seem likely he'd waste his time on the "modified" given the context of the story, and this possibility would still run into the problem of other lineages not matching the "traditional " but rather the "modified " paradigm.

[yuanfen]

Rene sez:

No joy, it really can't in this context. In the context of TWC,

((TWC doesnt have exclusive rights on Ip Man wing chun and trying to change TWC views is intless and futile IMO))

We don't know that. The only evidence we have of this is the Mok Poi-On interview, which at first I thought was conclusive Yip Man did mention it, but now have heard that it was actually a Leung Ting interview in Yip Man's name, and as Leung Ting himself has said, he was very fond of Lee Man (who Wang Kiu maintains came up with the Leung Bik story) and listened to his stories all the time.

((A chain without fixed links. Several of Ip man's students just
accepted Ip man's own picture of his background. Some have nothing to do with Mok Poi or Leung Ting or Cheung as authorities on their wing chun. Most wing chun folks I know spend little time with the Leung Bik story- we keep blowing it out of proportion on the net))

[KPM]

Joy wrote:
((A chain without fixed links. Several of Ip man's students just
accepted Ip man's own picture of his background. Some have nothing to do with Mok Poi or Leung Ting or Cheung as authorities on their wing chun. Most wing chun folks I know spend little time with the Leung Bik story- we keep blowing it out of proportion on the net))

---That is only because it is used as the central theme for the claims laid out by the TWC family. Claims that label all the rest of us as "modified" and "inferior." If TWC were to drop those claims and its labels for the rest of us, the Leung Bik story would recede to the background and become what it should become....an historical footnote or curiosity.

Keith

[KPM]

Hi David!

it is said (by Yip Ching) that at the purported meeting and defeat of Yip Man by Leung Bik, Yip Man had completed the Wing Chun system to the level of Chum Kiu and had not learned Bil Jee.

---Very interesting! I had not heard this particular slant on the story before. But I would take this with a "grain of salt." The article also states that Yip Man went to Hong Kong to attend St. Francis College....not St. Stephen's College as everyone else states. The article also has Yip Man being 17 at the time, which if I am recalling properly is older than what most others state. From what I understand, even though they were called "colleges", these institutions in Hong Kong at the time were really middle schools. This article also says that Leung Jan had only 3 students...Chan Wah Shun and his own two sons....which we know from other sources is untrue. So I am not sure I would believe this claim of Yip Man only knowing WCK through the Chum Kiu form.

This description mentions nothing of teaching held back from Chan Wah Shun, but rather the opportunity to learn from a better educated si-pak who could communicate concepts in a more sophisticated fashion AND who completed his training in the rest of the system.

---Assuming that the Yip Man really did learn from Leung Bik, I think this is likely the closest to the truth. Yip Chun's version of the Leung Bik story says nothing about Yip Man not knowing the entire system and learning the dummy, Biu Jee and weapons from Leung Bik. But it does back up the idea of Yip Man learning the theories and concepts in more depth and detail. So it seems most likely to me that Yip Man developed a better understanding and grasp of the WCK principles from Leung Bik. This understanding may very well have influenced such things as structure, footwork and strategy. Yip Man may very well have selectively taught aspects of this understanding to various students. Victor has admitted that elements of what have become known as "trademark" aspects of TWC have shown up in the teachings of other Yip Man students. So it is possible that Yip Man taught William Cheung elements of WCK theory that come from the more in-depth or advanced teachings of Leung Bik. It is possible that William Cheung took some of these concepts and "ran with them" and innovated a bit on his own to come up with TWC. It is also possible that a young boy being taught something that seemed different from what his classmates were learning got a little carried away with the whole idea of it and the story behind it became a bit exagerated over time. Regardless, I still have seen no evidence that makes me believe TWC existed in its present form prior to when William Cheung began teaching it to the public.

So if we accept that Leung Bik did exist, did teach Yip Man, and did teach him something above and beyond what he had learned from Chan Wah Shun, I don't see any reason to believe that what he taught was a totally separate, distinct, and "secret" version of WCK. But then I'm sure you probably agree with me. :-)

Keith

[azwingchun]

it is said (by Yip Ching) that at the purported meeting and defeat of Yip Man by Leung Bik, Yip Man had completed the Wing Chun system to the level of Chum Kiu and had not learned Bil Jee.

This is the same story as it is told by Ip Ching on a Wing Chun history tape that I have.

[Phil Redmond]

Keith,
This article also says that Leung Jan had only 3 students...Chan Wah Shun and his own two sons....which we know from other sources is untrue.KPM

Can you tell us these sources?

It is also possible that a young boy being taught something that seemed different from what his classmates were learning got a little carried away with the whole idea of it and the story behind it became a bit exagerated over time.KPM

You beat me to the punch. I have thought something similar after I learned that there were different WC families. Sifu Cheung really loved Yip Man like a father. He went with YM every where. Even places a young boy should not have frequented. I can see him believing what his Sifu told him. When I talk to him about it I can see that he really believes what Yip Man told him as a young boy.

Yuanfen,
Your post; "Is there any relevance to this "debate"?" Good post.
I agree with *almost* everything you said there. Does it really matter?
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

I posted this on another thread:
I have a question for you. I have a copy of 1975 8mm movie that was converted to VCD and VHS that shows William Cheung performing the 3 empty hand forms and the dummy in HK. The footage was taken at the VTAA. He went there to show his seniors and peers what Yip Man had taught him. Why would he show the other WC people something that he made up? The forms are almost the same as they are now except the dummy form has more kicks etc.
Phil