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Thread: WT Fight Club

  1. #46
    Hi Merry,

    Originally posted by Merryprankster
    Zhuge, basics are relative, but only to a point.
    "The point" is relative as well. It differs from style to style, teacher to teacher, and individual to individual. I'm not disputing the notion that sparring is a vital apect of training with regards to self defense. The point of difference is the definition of the correct time time to spar. I happen to agree that it should be "as soon as possible" as well, but we have different definitions of "possible."

    Regards,
    Zhuge Liang

  2. #47
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    i said i didn't see any elbers in the video, and jmdrake proved me wrong.

    You forgot to add "baby-killing" and "all brute strength and no technique."
    the formal terms for the last one are "no-talent, knuckle-draggin ..."

    i also left out tights-wearin, commie-luvin, flag-burnin and a couple more, but i thought they went without saying.
    " i wonder how many people take their post bone marrow transplant antibiotics with amberbock" -- GDA

  3. #48
    Originally posted by Merryprankster
    Because the question is actually more about training methods at this point, vice doing WC correctly.
    .....
    Secondly, it's a public forum. Tough.
    OK.

    My post came off harsher than I intended anyway.

    I am still curious though. Why do you post on the WC forum?

    My take on the video clips:

    I don't want to criticize anyone's skill.

    I just think they should take the helmets off.
    It's protecting them a little too much.

  4. #49
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    In this particular instance, I saw a link to sparring clips. So I went. Like most people in the MA's I'm interested in watching people spar. One thing led to another.

    I never once knocked them beyond saying they look like beginners. And they do. It DOES look like a slapfest. But that's not an insult because they'll learn, and that's exactly what I said. They're out there DOING it, which is more than I can say for many.

    We call new wrestlers fish--that's what they look like, flopping around. It only becomes an insult if, after years of experience, we still call you one

    I too wish they'd remove those headgear. I'm all for open face headgear though. They do an adequate job and the experience is far more...immediate.

    I would never, however, comment on the technical aspects of what they are doing, unless they were defending takedowns (just for the record, elbows to the back of the head don't cut it, most of the time). I can't offer to correct any perceived errors within a WC context, so there's no point.

    Does that make any sense?
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  5. #50
    Sparring should be a regular part of your training. Maybe not everyday but often. We just had a really meek guy in our dojo knock down a black belt. It's like MP said it's important to train away flinch response and the shock of getting whacked, this guy did and finally moved onto hitting back. His form still sucks but I think he can handle himself better now that he crossed that line.
    I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards A painfully honest KC Elbows

    The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

    Dam nit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

    DM


    People love Iron Crotch. They can't get enough Iron Crotch. We all ride the Iron Crotch for the exposure. Gene

    Find the safety flaw in the training. Rory Miller.

  6. #51
    Originally posted by Merryprankster
    In this particular instance, I saw a link to sparring clips. So I went. Like most people in the MA's I'm interested in watching people spar. One thing led to another.

    I never once knocked them beyond saying they look like beginners. And they do. It DOES look like a slapfest. But that's not an insult because they'll learn, and that's exactly what I said. They're out there DOING it, which is more than I can say for many.

    We call new wrestlers fish--that's what they look like, flopping around. It only becomes an insult if, after years of experience, we still call you one

    I too wish they'd remove those headgear. I'm all for open face headgear though. They do an adequate job and the experience is far more...immediate.

    I would never, however, comment on the technical aspects of what they are doing, unless they were defending takedowns (just for the record, elbows to the back of the head don't cut it, most of the time). I can't offer to correct any perceived errors within a WC context, so there's no point.

    Does that make any sense?
    Yes, perfect sense. I understand where you're coming from.

    From my POV, I don't see anything wrong with sparring as early as possible. But I don't really see much point in complimenting them for doing sparring either. People in WC and in other arts are doing sparring so they're not special.

    It's kinda patronizing actually. Any boxer or kickboxer would expect a better standard from a 1 year beginner in their art. But because it's WC, these guys are congratulated just for putting clips on the internet.

  7. #52
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    Not patronizing really. I think it's just sort of a "great to see that people are sparring" in an era where so many people don't, you know?

    And yeah, boxers and kickboxers would expect better. But that's because WC is SOOOOOOO much more 'advanced' and it takes SOOOOOOO much longer to learn to fight with it
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  8. You can always spar -- just find someone to spar with. Merry you seem to be looking for some sanction from WC that formally declares "Sparring is Good."

    You could go to a MA supply store and see if you can find a badge that says "World Wing Chun Sparring Society" on it (beside the dragon logo) and sew it on your jean jacket.

    Just a thought.

  9. #54
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    Seeing as I don't do WC, I don't think it would be appropriate for me to wear such a patch.

    Secondly, I don't need a WC sanction. I know sparring is good. First question I'd ask at any school I was looking at "Do you spar?" The second would be "I'd like to watch a sparring session/class before I consider signing up, is that ok?"
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  10. Good luck then Merry. All the best.

  11. #56
    Originally posted by Merryprankster
    And yeah, boxers and kickboxers would expect better. But that's because WC is SOOOOOOO much more 'advanced' and it takes SOOOOOOO much longer to learn to fight with it
    I don't think anyone used that as an excuse for the performance in the clips.

    As shown by various posts here, a lot of WC people *did* expect a bit better than that.

  12. #57
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    Hi Merry Prankster
    You seem to be well grounded in fighting arts. I know you place a lot of importance on sparring, which is good. However if for some reason you ever did want to try W.C I wouldnt restrict your search to only schools that spar. You can still apply what youve leant by sparring outside class time with fellow students or your own sparring buddies.
    From what Ive seen in different W.C schools, the w.c schools that dont spar are often of a higher standard than those that do.
    On your part there would need to be a leap of faith. The best way is to go to as many schools as you can. Dont leave if they dont spar, stick around and see what they can do.

  13. #58
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    Miles Teg, A-dog,

    I understand your points. But if that's the case--no class time, or open mat time devoted to sparring--then the instructor needs to make it VERY CLEAR that what they are learning will be next to useless if they don't go out to spar with people.

    Secondly, it's just ****ed inconvenient. Most people don't wander around from MA school to MA school making sparring contacts. I get around a bit in the local MA scene and have no more than 4 partners that I have met, outside of my school affiliated partners, that I could spar with.

    Edmund, I was making a joke.... easy....

    Secondly, I don't really know why they expected better out of beginners. I don't judge by "how long have you been training?" I judge by that, plus sparring experience. These guys are beginnners from a whacking each other around perspective.

    Thing is, the reason boxers/kickboxers would "expect better," is because by the end of 9 months, you've seen your fair share of sparring rounds. In the little bit of boxing I did, I started sparring after about 6 weeks. That was three times a week, between 2 and 3 rounds per session. That adds up to a fairly significant amount of sparring over 9 months. Not a ton mind you, and I'd probably just hurt myself if I ever tried to use it instead of my takedowns, but I did learn to stay cool in the middle of a flurry, not lose my structure, and counter attack...



    Even if I never could hit the 6'4" ******* who was my "usual" partner.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  14. #59
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    Last I checked, we've all got the same equipment. Your body obeys the same physical laws mine does and moves in more or less the same way.

    Can I say with 100% certainty that there ISN'T a 90 year old man on a mountain who can kick my ass while standing on one finger? Nope. I can assess that it's not likely.

    FWIW, perhaps if you viewed kickboxing and grappling without your WC tinted glasses, you might understand why sparring is necessary.

    I'll tell you one thing. Those ancient fighting masters didn't get that way without kicking the crap out of each other from time to time. And probably more regularly and frequently than that.

    On a side note kickboxing with WC shapes is still kickboxing... hmmm... does that mean that boxing with karate shapes is still boxing? How do you even define that?

    I would argue that if you're trained WC and you're using what you've learned in sparring it ain't kickboxing.
    Last edited by Merryprankster; 06-16-2003 at 05:57 AM.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  15. #60
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    Wnen wing chunners do "sparring" with gloves-it usually becomes neither fish nor fowl- neither good boxing/kickboxing nor good wing chun.

    Wing Chun varies so much in quality control that many non wcers comments on wing chun are simply and widely off the mark.
    Even chi sao means different things to different schools and
    teachers and practitioners.

    You have folks with insufficient or non existent wing chun skills
    and advocate "sparring" and you have wing chun folks who really havent put their motions to any testing. Two fringes. Little wing chun in the former and lots of illusions in the latter.
    Good wing chun training does teach developing non flinching, closing the gap, control under pressure, calmness under fire,
    advanced coordination of the body-horizontally and vertically or
    mixes in between, and adjustments when hit, thrown or otherwise endangered.

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