WT Fight Club

[Merryprankster]

This kinda cuts right into the centre of the issue - Looks dont tell all - there is so much going on with this simple kick - from a high level (strategy) to low level (internal mechanics) - there definitely aint any of this in muay thai!

More elitist crap. Tell ya what. Why don't you tell me how long you've done Muay Thai.

Oh, I realize that opens me up to the "But you've never done WC!" angle, but there's an important difference:

YOU are claiming that this WC kick offers something far more rarified and complex that the MT kick. I just happen to think you're full of crap about this. Although I do admit that what you say might be true, I highly doubt it.

So, tell me how you know that there's "none of that" going on in MT?

[Merryprankster]

Another problem is: Many beginners are disapointed when they can't make their wrestling work in sparring and they start discarding this or that technique as not effective. They think themselves as experts with their 10 months of wrestling and start evaluating and comparing the art to WC and whatever.
I know this causes some sarcastic comments but, the learning curve of wrestling is different from boxing or WC.You learn nothing in wrestling by getting whacked around silly.This is skillful art that demands years of patient practice to attain some relative high level,even if some real "street" effectiveness is obtainable in a relatively short times. No wonder that many will lack the proper dedication and will drift to other styles more adapted to their views about "fighting"
Everybody is free to believe what he want's. Even that sparring is the same as fighting. Or that you know "what is wrong in wrestling" or whatever other Red5Angel's type of idea. This will have no effect on the art and on those who like it enough to study it seriously.

[Merryprankster]

Problem is MP, all the martial arts you've seen so far all follow the same pattern : Learn this punch, this kick, this block, this throw, then add another punch, another kick... practise some kata or put in some hours with a bag and some focus mitts, and then spar to learn how to put it all together.

Wing chun is slightly different, we teach our bodies to move differently, we learn to read our opponent, and act appropriately by looking at combat in slightly more abstract terms of pressures, power lines and the like...

I just remembered this wonderful article that exactly demonstrates why the above statment is crap

http://www.themat.com/articles/showq...=5&fldAuto=115

Check it out. Great article about.... principles based wrestling! And how you use your PRINCIPLES + BASIC SKILLS to execute(Shocking, isn't it?!?!?!)

[old jong]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Another problem is: Many beginners are disapointed when they can't make their wrestling work in sparring and they start discarding this or that technique as not effective. They think themselves as experts with their 10 months of wrestling and start evaluating and comparing the art to WC and whatever.
I know this causes some sarcastic comments but, the learning curve of wrestling is different from boxing or WC.You learn nothing in wrestling by getting whacked around silly.This is skillful art that demands years of patient practice to attain some relative high level,even if some real "street" effectiveness is obtainable in a relatively short times. No wonder that many will lack the proper dedication and will drift to other styles more adapted to their views about "fighting"
Everybody is free to believe what he want's. Even that sparring is the same as fighting. Or that you know "what is wrong in wrestling" or whatever other Red5Angel's type of idea. This will have no effect on the art and on those who like it enough to study it seriously.

... Did I mentionned sarcasm somewhere?...

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Merry,

Originally posted by Merryprankster


More elitist crap. Tell ya what. Why don't you tell me how long you've done Muay Thai.

Oh, I realize that opens me up to the "But you've never done WC!" angle, but there's an important difference:

YOU are claiming that this WC kick offers something far more rarified and complex that the MT kick. I just happen to think you're full of crap about this. Although I do admit that what you say might be true, I highly doubt it.

So, tell me how you know that there's "none of that" going on in MT?

This topic has gotten a little bit too personal on all sides for my tastes, but I want offer my opinion on the front kick. I can't speak for other schools, be it wing chun or muay thai, but the way my school does the front kick seems to me to be significantly different. Please let me explain. From an "external" point of view, our kick does not make use of hip rotation for power. We do not (or should not) thrust our kicking side hip forward to drive into our opponent. Rather, the body remains (or should remain) squarely facing our target throughout the entire kick. There is also no foward commitment (other than the kick) so the body does not have to step foward during or after the kick. From an external view point, it very much looks like we're standing on one leg, and just extending the other leg, seemingly without moving the other parts of the body (be it hip, shoulder, hands, etc.). So if you can accept that this is the way we do our kicks, then I think we can agree that this is different from the Muay Thai push kick. Note that I didn't say better, but merely different.

The obvious question one might ask after reading the above description is "where's the beef?" Or something like that. Well, that has to do with internal mechanics. Although we all have the same bodies, we do not all use them the same way. What if I told you my instructor not only kicks in the above described manner, but can generate a huge amount of force with it? I'm not a biologist nor a physicist so take that into account. But I would be entirely unsurprised if his kick breaks a planted shin. In fact, I would very surprised if the full force of his kick couldn't. I guess whether or not you believe me would depend on whether or not you think I'm delusional, but i suppose there's not much I can do over the internet to prove that I'm not. So take it as you will.

But, if only for the moment, you take what I described above as true. Then it seems to me that our Wing Chun kick is both externally and internally significantly different from the Muay Thai push kick, and we have only to conclude that the two kicks are different.

But that of course hinges on whether or not you believe me, and there's no amount of logic or reasoning that will give you a definitive reason to do so. But let me add this. I have done around 3 years or so of Hapkido. Obviously, it's far from being any kind of expert, but I do feel that I have some understanding of the Hapkido push kick. And if you'll allow me to be so bold, I presume that the mechanics are similar to the Muay Thai version. And I didn't have to wait three years to realize that our Wing Chun front kick is different either. It was obvious the first time I saw Ken (my instructor) do the front kick on a wooden post.

Now I must again re-iterate that I'm not claiming superiority. Just difference. Not the superiority of difference. Just difference. I'm sure we can make good points on the pros and cons of each type of kick. But my intention wasn't proving one is better than the other. It was to show that they were different, and perhaps attempt to shed some light on how they are different.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[old jong]

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang


Now I must again re-iterate that I'm not claiming superiority. Just difference. Not the superiority of difference. Just difference. I'm sure we can make good points on the pros and cons of each type of kick. But my intention wasn't proving one is better than the other. It was to show that they were different, and perhaps attempt to shed some light on how they are different.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

No!...It's crap!...

[fa_jing]

Good point ZL. I would just like to add that there are many variations of the front kick practiced in Wing Chun Kuen. I happen to favor variations where the hip is thrusted forward, but I think that's because I emphasize the use of this kick at a longer range than your sifu. Maybe we could start up a discussion of the ways to power and use this kick. Overall it is emphasized more in WCK than in Muy Thai. I have also seen some of the MT mechanics and footwork in person and I believe them to be sophisticated. I have seen a Muy Thai fighter from Thailand on TV appear to throw his teep for damage, even knocking down his opponent, also he was throwing a variation with the toes pointed inwards, approaching a side kick.

[yuanfen]

Due to shared pc access lately I haventkept up with all the posts... but some comments in passing...

1. elitist crap? Sure- so what.

2. ZL and fajing- Yes MT kicks and wc kicks are completely differen-IMO- different structures involved and contexts in which to use kicks. The individual- his development- his teaching and learning
are the important things... and in doing that "for me" wc is a far better journey than MT, MMA, BJJ etc we keep going round and round with non wcers. Same old same old shibboleths.

3. As has been pointed out repeatedly good wcers do test their stuff - aginst resisting opponents ( a current popular way of expression). They dont have to do what is commonly called sparring- but there is fast and furious contact. Schools vary-- soa sample of a school or schools are not necessarily representative of wc. Like all arts- there is bad wc.

4. Fajing- thrusting ones hip forward IMO is not the best of things-
if it ends up requiring rechambering and loss of fluidity. The conservation and redirection and fludity and control are also important.

5. Good wing chunners I know are not really into chest thumping, putting their scraps on videos etc. Folks need to have confidence in what they are doing or learning---- or try something else.
The shrinking in size of the number of core wing chun people- not necessarily a bad thing...except fpr the marketing folks.

[apoweyn]

yuanfen,

5. Good wing chunners I know are not really into chest thumping, putting their scraps on videos etc. Folks need to have confidence in what they are doing or learning---- or try something else.
The shrinking in size of the number of core wing chun people- not necessarily a bad thing...except fpr the marketing folks.

To my mind, it has nothing whatsoever to do with chest thumping. We come to a discussion forum to share ideas. It's a logical extension of that process to illustrate ideas. I don't think anyone would argue with the idea that martial arts are in the doing. Not the discussing. So it's not that unusual that other martial artists would want to see the doing. And not just have it described to them.

Folks do need to have confidence in what they're doing. But there are basically two paths to confidence: 1) observable and reproducible results that reinforce the belief or 2) faith.

Either works. Either will end the debate. (I can't argue anyone out of a position of absolute faith any more than I can debate the observable and well-documented fact that the Earth is round.)

People want to test. They want to observe for themselves. If other people don't want to provide evidence through which to do that, it's certainly their prerogative. But let's be clear. It's not about chest thumping or showing off. It's about what it's always been about. The proof is in the performance. And it's only natural that people should want to see that performance for themselves.


Stuart B.

[WCis4me]

Hi Joy,

5. Good wing chunners I know are not really into chest thumping, putting their scraps on videos etc. Folks need to have confidence in what they are doing or learning---- or try something else.

Actually, I am thankful that SOME do put things into video (when it is realistic and they have skill). But then again I like watching fighting (boxing, MT, MA tournaments, etc), and am a little odd.

Regards,
Vicky

[KenWingJitsu]

Good wingchunners have few clips of any kind of sparring or resistance fighting because,....so few do it to begin with.

Fajing...I would LOVE to see those clips. Cant wait.

We dont spar.

Problem number one. Needs to be remedied somehow.

However, we do train every range, full force, speed, resistance (blah!)

MMmmmm. okay, and what is that exactly? If it's a poor facsimilie of sparring which it sounds like, then why not just simply....spar.

the 16oz gloves come out on a regular basis - lots of boxing experience around.

If you're not sparring, then what use is having "boxing experience"? Just wearing gloves doesn not realistic training make. You have to actually do it.

And, we train with real 'alive' chisao, and no video clips arent available

There's no such thing as real alive chi-sao. There is nothing alive about a predetermined structure or attack. If you're doing 'spontaneous' chi-sao, then call it that. It's still not sparring.

And yes, I chose those quotes to make a point. Flame on. My bong-sao is ready.....

[Black Jack]

Look I am not bashing drills. Just the misuse.

I believe both good conceptual and techincal info can come out of a drill if the player takes into account that it is just that....a drill....a drill is like an exercise at the gym. But more specific in that it is used to increase certain martial attributes and reactions common to that set style.

Their are big differences between set exercises and chaotic street encounters. If you just stick to one format how are you going to react if that format does not fit in with the situation. Nobody just does one kind of exercise at the gym anyway, its often a complete workout, kinda like adding free/situational sparring to your training to make it more whole.

The best way to do this IMO is when your formated gameplan gets f@ckup. Which happens often in sparring and makes you think. Things like......man all this neat footwork that I learned on a flat mat in the kwoon really is not the best on a elevated surface....maybe time to break the mold and adapt.

BTW- A drill can start out and then progress to free sparring if both players don't kill the flow and let it go everywhere and anywhere.



Just thoughts.

[old jong]

This is getting hollow!...And as you know:Hollow is always louder.

[yuanfen]

Comments on Apoweyn in brackets:

We come to a discussion forum to share ideas.

((Sharing of ideas? Not enough of real ideas...Often its same same old shibboleths))

It's a logical extension of that process to illustrate ideas. I don't think anyone would argue with the idea that martial arts are in the doing. Not the discussing.

((Not quite- logical analysis of principles of an art are also inportant. Provides a standard for understanding what the doer is doing and if he is doing what he thinks he is))

So it's not that unusual that other martial artists would want to see the doing.

((Not all martial artists care to be on display when important things are not involved))

And not just have it described to them.

((Not everyone aims to please))

Folks do need to have confidence in what they're doing. But there are basically two paths to confidence: 1) observable and reproducible results that reinforce the belief or 2) faith.

((3. a modification of one. Knowing for yourself whether and when things work- doesnt have to be observable to others except yourself.))

Either works. Either will end the debate. (I can't argue anyone out of a position of absolute faith any more than I can debate the observable and well-documented fact that the Earth is round.)

((Nah--- the net has brought out a common phenomenon- debate for the sake of "hearing" oneself talk))

People want to test.

(( Some folks will take part in a test for sufficient money, sufficient principle or for experience- contexts and people vary))

The proof is in the performance.

((Sure))

And it's only natural that people should want to see that performance for themselves.

((Voyeurs too. Bad drivers show up at accident scenes too- and go out of the same door through which they entered.

BTW- I have zero desire to recruit people to my art, or to convince them that it is the "best"... bit on the net anyway-- am interested in sharing analysis of wing chun and just get a passing sense of what is going on elsewhere. Most top flight martaial artists that I know 1.are not the net 2. dont care what goes on on the net..so the net gives a skewed sense of the martial arts world))


Stuart B.

[old jong]

...We never know if that really tough m.f. who preaches his MMA gospel is not really some pimple faced teenager who's having some good times!...