Emei Master Helen Liang

[PHILBERT]

OR you could just wait until you are 29 and marry.

[GLW]

“ Traditional Chinese Kung Fu is performed with a tucked tail bone,”

Yes…


“ straite back, “

STRAIGHT back…aligne spine…yes

“rounded shoulders, and a sunken chest.”

ABSOLUTELY NOT. Traditional Chaquan and virtually all northern systems do NOT do this. The interpretation of sunken chest for Taijiquan is in COMPARISON to these northern styles. Sinking the chest is NOT what is meant. What is meant for the internal styles is to relax the chest. Sinking the chest the way many do only blocks the Heart, Lung, and Pericardium Jing Luo channels.

For Northern fist, power is generated from the extremes. It uses the natural elasticity of the body – you extend it far and it whips back like a rubber band. For those styles, getting the body to expand and contract is the key. With that in mind, paused sections WILL have an expanded chest. In fact, in most paused sections of things like Cha, Pao, Hong, or Hu fist, if it is NOT expanded, it is not enough.

Helen Liang has a very solid grounding in northern fists.

“This body structure may not be pretty, but it is nessasary for optimal alignment and power issuance.”

Not true. There are MANY Traditional methods for issuing and generating power.

You also ignored the request for a complete definition that distinguishes Contemporary from Traditional. Such a definition has to NOT be contradicted by various Traditional styles. For example, many of the things stated about Contemporary Wushu ARE found in 100% Traditional systems like Chaquan. About the ONLY thing I have ever been able to note about Contemporary vs. Traditional is that in many of the Contemporary routines, the flow of the techniques – the connection from one section to another – seem contrived or illogical. Also, in some of them, they take TRAINING drills and include them instead of leaving them as training drills.

[Royal Dragon]

“rounded shoulders, and a sunken chest.”

ABSOLUTELY NOT. Traditional Chaquan and virtually all northern systems do NOT do this. The interpretation of sunken chest for Taijiquan is in COMPARISON to these northern styles. Sinking the chest is NOT what is meant. What is meant for the internal styles is to relax the chest. Sinking the chest the way many do only blocks the Heart, Lung, and Pericardium Jing Luo channels.

Reply]
Interesting, I have footage of more than one Old Tai Tzu masters that do this. The younger genrations do not seem to do it, but the Old one defenetly do.

>>For Northern fist, power is generated from the extremes. It uses the natural elasticity of the body – you extend it far and it whips back like a rubber band. For those styles, getting the body to expand and contract is the key. With that in mind, paused sections WILL have an expanded chest. In fact, in most paused sections of things like Cha, Pao, Hong, or Hu fist, if it is NOT expanded, it is not enough.

Reply]
Hmmmm, I think "Opened" chest would be a better example, as in opening the thorasic hinge, rather than expand. Sticking the chest out (What I see by expand) is hard to do without pulling the shoulders back, and that will limit total "expansion". The structure I speak of is still there, only in an "expanded" form. We may be talking about the same thing, only with different termonology.

>>Helen Liang has a very solid grounding in northern fists.

“This body structure may not be pretty, but it is nessasary for optimal alignment and power issuance.”

Not true. There are MANY Traditional methods for issuing and generating power.

You also ignored the request for a complete definition that distinguishes Contemporary from Traditional.

Reply]
No I didn't, my definition just does not agree with your.....completely

>> Such a definition has to NOT be contradicted by various Traditional styles. For example, many of the things stated about Contemporary Wushu ARE found in 100% Traditional systems like Chaquan. About the ONLY thing I have ever been able to note about Contemporary vs. Traditional is that in many of the Contemporary routines, the flow of the techniques – the connection from one section to another – seem contrived or illogical. Also, in some of them, they take TRAINING drills and include them instead of leaving them as training drills.


Reply]
Very interesting views. I'll have to think about it for a wile.

[joedoe]

Hey guys, just be careful when you make 'admiring' remarks about Helen Liang. I got busted by Gene for being disrespectful to her when I made some comments a while back.

[RAF]

Hmmmm. About 3 or 4 years back, didn't she do a demonstration on special on ESPN about martial arts? Nick Gracenin was comented throughout the show. Had a lot of interesting martial artists.

Liang Shou Yu is a pretty traditional artist. Like it or not, his taijiquan 24 movement tape and book are excellent (the tape also teaches applications). Regardless of the lineage claims, his bagua training is worth reading. His student, Sam Masicih does a very decent Chen performance. His website has some interesting articles, too.

Must be pick on Liang Shou Yu week.

[GeneChing]

Like a cover story maybe?

[PHILBERT]

Man, I earned some extra money this weekend at work. Too bad I got to have my car inspected ($40) and get a new sticker for registration this month($50), or I'd order that video.

[Stacey]

I take it back...Madam Wu all the way.

Helen is too lazy to keep her hips underneith her and has small legs.

Those are the kind of low stances that begginers do. Bu hao.

[GLW]

Try reading the story....

All true...and a great testament to the power that Wushu, Qi Gong, and attitude can have.

[norther practitioner]

GLW... good posts, same to you RD....

My chang chuan forms are often equated by wushu people as chang chuan with less running, no twists (b-fly twists), ect. The differences aren't as much as many would like you to believe....

Look at some longer range shaolin forms, any of the Cha forms... etc. Take that, some good athletes, take the "flashier" moves, add some acrobatics, then you have the modern wushu.

[GLW]

Ah...you begin to see the point NP...

Exactly what defines Contemporary vs. Traditional.

Is it the routine?

If so, how do you account for a Traditional person doing - say the old Changquan Compulsory - with speed, power, and martial understanding? They MAKE the routine Traditional.

What about if you take a Contemporary person and teach them a Traditional routine...say a Contemporary Nanquan person and teach them Traditional Hung Gar.... They would probably do it like they do Contemporary Nanquan. Now, the routine is Traditional...so what is it now?

Is it the way the techniques are done? Ok...NOW to evaluate a routine for Traditional or Contemporary, you have to spell out EXACTLY how each technique differs between Traditional and Contemporary. Quite a list. When you do this, the routine becomes completely unimportant except as a vehicle for martial expression...OOPS...Did I say that...imagine, the Routine serving the expression or the person doing it... Oh My...Lions and Tigers and Bears....Not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy...

Bearing this in mind, say you are JUDGING at a competition and see these points...and you also know that you judge - 6 points on technique, 2 points on speed and power, and 2 points on intent, artistic merit, realization of the martial idease, etc...

Well, given that, a person NOT showing martial intent will lose much of the 2 points for intent and probably much of the 2 points for speed and power (since that is usually where the routine is lacking). Can anyone REALLY win with a final score of 7 to 8 in advanced level?

So what's the problem - provided the judge knows what they are looking at.

In Contemporary - what happens if they start REALLY applying their stated rules concerning Speed, Power, Martial Understanding, etc...as well as the martial intent of the actual form's choreography... Oops...you end up scoring EXACTLY the same way as Traditional...

AND...the Contemporary folks would STOP using flimsy weapons...they would lose points with them...and they would actually have power in those running strikes....(Northern DOES have running strikes...they are just very hard to execute and get power and timing right).

AND...the structure of stances and stepping...is the same...just some folks simply do it wrong.

[norther practitioner]

GLW, agreed....

Northern DOES have running strikes...they are just very hard to execute and get power and timing right

Jump front kicks come to mind, so many traditionalists don't have as much power as the contemp. guys... I got tips from a wushu person, my kicks speed increased a decent amount...

Some hammer fist strikes have a very dynamic look and application, same with some of the tong bei ish strikes in there that look like a few quick steps.

The "beginners" forms at some wushu schools are traditional, or with some stuff added to the end or something.

[Stacey]

because traditional lama kicks the same way as mantis or hung gar or choy lif fut or eagle claw....you know...traditional. Its all the same and not nearly as cool as commie stuff.

[GLW]

Commie stuff...

and I suppose you saw all that from your bomb shelter....

Don't forget to use the word PINKO too...

[GeneChing]

Helen beat lymphoma with kung fu. Traditional or wushu, that's a pretty strong application. Could you beat cancer with your style?