Yang Style of Tai Chi Chuan not Good Enough from a Martial Aspect?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by omarthefish


What Yang Style? You mean like a style of a style? Yang is the style.

So you don't see a diff. between YCF, CMC, Em, Guang Ping and similar.
There was recently a good article series detailing the diff. between the yang styles and training methods.

Chen has 5 recognised sub-styles.

Cheers.

[Shooter]

I would have assumed that you would have progressed more in your views about MA/styles and so on

I've always said that there are as many styles of TCC as there are players. The Chen stylists are the ones who insist on being distinct and 'truly orthodox/authentic'. The Yang dudes I'm referring to have a background in Yang's, as do I...that's the only reason I refer to them as Yang stylists. I just practice Tai Chi these days. My training partners are schooled in Yang's which I originally studied, but I guide them away from stylism asap.

[Vapour]

Well, firstly, there are different type of Yang style. Older form of Yang are said to contain expression of fajing. Secondly, standard Yang style may have advance form such as San Shou form or Kwai taiji form which contain more fajing that Chen cannon form.

Thirdly, Chen Man Ching developed a variation of Yang style which took focus on relaxation to extreme and his style contain no fajing in the form. However, CMC student's student, Mario Napoli, I think, (stan Israel's student) went to China and defeated the chen family in the push hands competition years ago.

On more serious note, my instructor practice both Chen and Chen Man Ching style. He is level two in Chen. He commented that at lower level of expertise, Chen stylist do not know how to swtich, which is probably to do with lesser emphasis on differentiating Yin and Yang.

[Empty Fist]

Here are some excerpts from Peter Lim's Taijiquan Resource Page about the Yang Style


Many have said that Yang Lu Chan softened the form to suit the unfit members of the imperial court, making the art easier and less effective, focusing on health aspects because guns were making martial arts obsolete. There is no proof beyond hearsay for this conjecture. Before Yang Lu Chan entered the imperial court, his boxing was already so soft and neutralizing that it attained the name `mien quan' (cotton fist) and we have record of a bout where Yang's skill was questioned because his form was so soft, a bout which he won.

Being in the Imperial Court as a martial arts instructor, it was imperative to turn out students of high attainment. It was literally a matter of life and death since with withholding anything from the Royal family was considered treason. Rather than causing the Yang art to be diluted, it probably added a lot more in terms of content due to the opportunity to meet and compare skills with other highly skilled martial artist in the imperial court at that time.

The Old Yang Form differs only on details with the standardized Yang Form of Yang Cheng Fu. One needs to note that Yang Cheng Fu himself did not standardize the form. Its just that he spread the form so widely that his method of doing the form became the accepted standard.

The Old Yang Form retains the 'strength explosions' (Fa-Jing) and jumping kicks (one only). We know that the sequence of the Old Yang Form and the standardized Yang Form is almost the same. From the old manual of Wu Yu Xiang also records a very similar sequence.

When Yang Cheng Fu began to teach in public classes he taught them from the basics. He removed the strength explosions (Fa-Chin) and replaced them with using qi to extend the limb instead. This is a basic practice which teaches one to bring qi to power the limb, only after this has been achieved can strength explosions (Fa-Chin) be done properly. He also smoothed out the form to emphasize flow, rootedness and relaxation which is primary to the art. Only after the flow, rootedness and relaxation are mastered can changes in speed take place without losing these qualities. These speed changes are evident in Yang Chen Fu's Taiji Long Boxing as well as Yang Shao Hou's small frame.

Other than a few minor variations, his form remained much the same as the Later Yang Form. Yang Cheng Fu travelled extensively throughout China promoting his art. Taijiquan was already well known at that time as a combat art with great curative powers. Its mode of practice enabled both old and infirmed to take up the art to better their health. Yang Cheng Fu himself was undefeated and was a great boxer, his reputation and ability caused the art to spread far and wide and made it what it is today: the most popular form of Taijiquan in the world.

The great popularity of his form and the huge numbers of people who took it up caused it to become the standard form for Yang Taijiquan. There are those who still practiced the older forms but Yang Cheng Fu's form became the hallmark of the style. Yang Cheng Fu taught and promoted his art as a combat art. There is little evidence other than conjecture that he promoted his art solely as a health art. Both his books focus on the art as a combat art and his writings all dealt with the practice towards achieving a combative goal. In practicing the art as a combat art, one gained the health benefits as well, both aspects of the art being inseparable.

Here is the link if anybody is interested:

http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/historg4.htm

[Laughing Cow]

Empty Fist.

Thanks for the info, read the link years ago.
Not sure about how much value I should put into those old Histories.

For a long time Chen Small Frame (my style) was considered as having gotten rid of the difficult movements like Fah-Jing, jumps and so on.
When in reality they are still there and we have a few movements lacking from the large(new) frame which I think was derived from the small frame.

Personally, I don't give to much value to what people tell me about TJQ unless it is the same as I hear coming from the sources (Chen Village, Yang Family, etc).

I have heard many TALL stories when it comes to TJQ and most of them are lets say ... cough bull cough sh`t cough.

Cheers.

[Ron Panunto]

Hey Empty Fist,

Push hands (five different varieties) were developed by Chen Wangting about 150 years before Yang luchan was born.

Ron Panunto

[Empty Fist]

Ron,

Could show me your references to this? I read somewhere and I can't recall the source, that Yang Luchan created push hands as a a form of two person exercise to practice Tai Chi Chuan.

[Laughing Cow]

Who created Push Hands?

I don't think we will ever really know.

Chen TJQ practices it, so does Yang TJQ.
Many other styles also got a similar training method.

IF YLC did develop it was it during his stay at the village or after.
If after how did it go back to the Village.
Personally, I don't think either CTW or YLC did develop it, but it was incorporated into the art from outside at some time.

We could always ask our Teacher's about it.


Either way who cares who developed it, it is a good and important training routine.

Cheers.

[HuangKaiVun]

Nowadays, people focus on doing the modern style Yang 24/48/108 sets.

Those sets have a distinctly different flavor from older renditions of "Yang" style, as can be seen in photographic comparisons between Grandmaster Yang Cheng Fu and modern day wushu competitors.

At least to me, the major difference is that the modern style emphasizes physical beauty of the moves by deepening the stances and extending the limbs. Yang Cheng Fu and his disciple Cheng Manqing do not extend their limbs as far nor stand as deeply, though Yang Cheng Fu reportedly could do the longer stances in his youth.

The training methods are totally different too. One focuses on beauty of form, the other emphasizes efficiency in COMBAT.

That said, Yang Cheng Fu supposedly invented his 108 set as a form of exercise. But photographs clearly indicate that he was a fighter - and one with considerable combat experience, I'd venture.

In short, I feel that the old Yang style (Yang Cheng Fu's form as well as Yang Lu Chan's even older set) is a suitable vehicle for combat efficacy. My students have used some of this stuff successfully in real encounters.

A great book which points at some of these differences is Nigel Sutton's "Applied Tai Chi Chuan".

[GLW]

“Nowadays, people focus on doing the modern style Yang 24/48/108 sets.”

24 and 48 are NOT Yang style. In fact, there are 3 basic barehand routines in Yang style: Yang Chengfu’s routine (counted as 85 by some and varying numbers from 103, 108, etc… by others), the competition Yang routine created by the China Sports commission ( a pretty bad routine by many people’s opinion…and I concur), and the 88 Posture routine.

While 88 is NOT strictly Yang style, it IS the Yang sequence done with some different flavor. If it were anywhere other than China, the ‘creators’ of this routine would be rightfully accused of plagiarizing Yang Chengfu’s routine.

24 is based upon Yang style but has a number of very distinct differences. 48 is a Combined routine – having Yang, Chen, Sun, and Wu elements throughout.

I did NOT include Cheng Manching’s routine in this. It is derived from Yang but is significantly different in method as is Guang Ping to make them distinct.


“Those sets have a distinctly different flavor from older renditions of "Yang" style, as can be seen in photographic comparisons between Grandmaster Yang Cheng Fu and modern day wushu competitors. “

You don’t see competitors doing the Yang Chengfu set. It is known to some of them..but not done for photos or competition…first…it is simply too long. Second, it is truly for people wanting to do Taijiquan…not competitors.


“At least to me, the major difference is that the modern style emphasizes physical beauty of the moves by deepening the stances and extending the limbs. “

Not exactly true. The core of 24 and the goal is the same as Yang Chengfu’s…however, a LOT of people do it badly or just plain wrong. Similarly, a lot of Yang folks have NO stances and no martial intent….poor basics.


“Yang Cheng Fu and his disciple Cheng Manqing do not extend their limbs as far nor stand as deeply, though Yang Cheng Fu reportedly could do the longer stances in his youth. “

While Cheng Manching DID learn from Yang Chengfu, many in the Yang family (Yang Zhenduo, Fu Zhongwen, etc…) would disagree with you on the “Disciple” part.

The pictures of Yang Chengfu were taken later in his life. He is KNOWN to have suffered from deteriorating health and lost a lot of his strength by that time. There are quotes about how high he would raise his knees and how low his stances would be at one time and how they became poorer as he gained more weight.

However, look at pictures of other Yang Chengfu’s students – I have a few of them. The stances are lower and more powerful in many of them.

“The training methods are totally different too. One focuses on beauty of form, the other emphasizes efficiency in COMBAT. “

THAT depends entirely on the teacher. The Yang Chengfu routine is the most widely practiced Taijiquan routine in the world for HEALTH followed by either the Wu form or 24.

“That said, Yang Cheng Fu supposedly invented his 108 set as a form of exercise. But photographs clearly indicate that he was a fighter - and one with considerable combat experience, I'd venture. “

That is the routine that Fu Zhongwen did. He was NOT someone that ‘played’ at Taijiquan. (But he was a very nice man that liked a good meal). He WAS one of the people that handled challenges for his teacher, Yang Chengfu.

[HuangKaiVun]

Absolutely no argument from me, GLW.

The only difference between us is that I'm going by standard nomenclature while you're going by how things REALLY ARE.

Nice post.

[GLW]

Darn...you found out I am a realist....and I've been telling myself that I was just a slightly disillusioned Idealist all this time

[bob10]

Has Master Ma had a lot of fights?

[Empty Fist]

I'm not sure. I know when William C.C. Chen was younger he used to fight.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

.....will teach that yang style hides its fajing and doesnt make it obvious like chen taiji. a true yang master is one who has fought and teaches fighting. He will teach some fajing as solo drills, but the form is done smooth and hiding power.