Tae Kwon do sucks!

[sweaty_dog]

"After all, Japan is the only non-Western country to join imperialist conquest."

Rubbish.

[Mr Punch]

Yep, absolutely, I would guess that the Mongols would have had something to say to Vapour from Poland about that...!

[Vapour]

Either some of you suffer from gross lack of historical knowledge or just nitpicking on the term imperialism. The term imperialism has very specific meaning and does not include Mongol's global expansion.

[shaolin kungfu]

Do you consider the ottoman empire eastern or western?

[chen zhen]

Eastern, definately.

agrees

[Vapour]

You got me there. However, here are few counters.

One, turkey at least would like to consider themselves part of Europe. They are in Euro Song contest and other European football league after all. Their culture do look distinctly different from Northern European coutries, but once you edge close to country like Greece or southern Slavic nations the difference become less obvious as Ottoman empire inherited large part of Byzantie Empire, not to mention the fact that muslim has been part of Europe for suprising long period.

Secondly, Ottoman empire didn't really aquire any territory at all during the period concerned. There are number of country which was empire during the period such as Qin Dynasty for example which was Manchurian empire rulling over Chinese. But we don't consider them as part of imperialism don't we despite the fact that they fought over Koera with Japanese.

I'm certainly happy to admit that Ottoman empire is a grey area given that it was a major player in *European* geo-politics.

However, personally, I don't consider Ottoman empire to qualify for the country to join the leage of imperialism mainly because the empire declined rather than expanded during the period concerned.

There are few other reasons. For example, Ottoman empire wasn't turkish empire as current Turkish government would like to promote. Jew, Greek, Turkish, Armenian and Arab were sometimes refered to as five fingers of the empire. The loss of multiculturalism was one reason the empire disintegrated. Lastly, Ottoman empire was feudal. Now, how feudal Japan was is a interesting topic of debate. But Japan did take significant and deliberate steps to bring itself out of feudal society. In turkey, such effort occure after Kemal Ataturk.

The statement that Japan being the only non-western country to join the league of imeprialism is not at all controversial. However, once you up the level of academic accuracy, the statement can certainly be questioned. After all, general statement is what it is. General.

And why am I debating imperialism in TKD thread?

[Yung Apprentice]

I was wondering the same thing.

[David Jamieson]

vapour and rogue choked out the negative to tkd thread.

Any martial art is as good as you make it. We all know there is a good deal of tkd or karate pracs out there who are just as good or even better than kungfu players (or just as bad.)

cheers

[TigerJaw]

Originally posted by Vapour
You got me there. However, here are few counters.

One, turkey at least would like to consider themselves part of Europe. They are in Euro Song contest and other European football league after all.

just as a poin t of fact for those who don't know. Almost all of Turkey is in Asia with a tiny amount of it, namely, the stretch between Istanbul and Edime being in Europe. In fact Istanbul stradles the neck of the Black Sea, which seperates the two continents. It has been extreemly important geo-politically in times past as it's one of the few routes between Asia and Europe that doesn't involve crossing water or mountains.

They're in the Euorvision song contest because they're part of the European broadcasting union. Isreal and Russia are also in it. (Russia is also mostly in Asia with a little bit in Europe.)

[TigerJaw]

Originally posted by Liokault


Yup im one of his students.......Is that Irish Mark?....used to work in the elm tree?

That's him.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by TigerJaw


just as a poin t of fact for those who don't know. Almost all of Turkey is in Asia with a tiny amount of it, namely, the stretch between Istanbul and Edime being in Europe. In fact Istanbul stradles the neck of the Black Sea, which seperates the two continents. It has been extreemly important geo-politically in times past as it's one of the few routes between Asia and Europe that doesn't involve crossing water or mountains.

They're in the Euorvision song contest because they're part of the European broadcasting union. Isreal and Russia are also in it. (Russia is also mostly in Asia with a little bit in Europe.)

There are no distinct landlines to separate Europe from Asia. Is Georgia part of Europe? Poland, a slavic nation is considered as part of Europe but Russian is not? Where do you draw a line. Well the answer is there are no lines. Europe is not surrounded by sea.

[TigerJaw]

Originally posted by Vapour


There are no distinct landlines to separate Europe from Asia. Is Georgia part of Europe? Poland, a slavic nation is considered as part of Europe but Russian is not? Where do you draw a line. Well the answer is there are no lines. Europe is not surrounded by sea.

The Eural mountains and the Black sea separate Europe and Asia.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by TigerJaw


The Eural mountains and the Black sea separate Europe and Asia.

Hahaha, yes with that, China and India are continent. Plus, there are huge excape route to Asia from the right hand side of Caspian sea, not to mention the fact that understanding of tectonic plate came way later than invention of the word, *Europe*. I can certainly accept that Europe is a region just like Middle East is but it is certainly not an unique geographical area like Africa, North/South America or Australia.

[TigerJaw]

We could argue all week about this, let's not bother.

[Vapour]

So true.