Cha Chuan #4

[norther practitioner]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...3&pagenumber=2

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by blooming lotus


so.....the bsl #7 is like the spear set but palmed or fisted ???....ditto on the video link cause I'll be ******!

cheers

There are a # of moi fah forms in a bunch of different northern arts, and thats what we were saying. One of which being bsl.

[blooming lotus]

ok..well NOW I get it

cheers NP

[GeneChing]

My plum tree is blossoming now and the flowers have five petals.

So this is a bit of an embarassing confession, but relevent to this conversation. The common BSL myth that BSL#7 is based on a 4 petal plum blossom is largely my fault, so here's an opportunity to correct it. When I was working on Sifu Wing Lam's video series, it gave me an ample opportunity to really question him on the forms, and for me personally, I always like to know the origin of names. When I asked him about plum flower, he said that it was because it travelled down four roads, one for each petal. Now back then I was younger and didn't cross-reference my research as thoroughly as I do now. I took what my Sifu said on face value, and that's how it went out in our literature and video series. I'm not sure where he got that - I find it interesting that my BSL cousin Northern Shaolin made the same error, so maybe it's something that persists in BSL. Maybe there are 4 petalled plum flowers, although that would fly in the face of conventional CAM usage. I can always tell when someone learned off of Wing Lam's videos, because I know all the mistakes, and when someone teaches that as doctrine, I know that their only source was the videos. But I know something of NS's lineage - although he may have seen WL's videos, that certainly wasn't his source. So now it's a bit of a puzzle to me. When I first discovered my error, I did do a literautre search to find an earlier example of a 4 petal plum blossom, but turned up empty. Of course, that was a long time ago, so maybe there's evidence now. Anyone?

I had been avoiding this thread a bit when the 4 vs. 5 petal thing came up. Let it be a lesson to all of us. Always cross-reference your research.

[wushu chik]

Originally posted by GeneChing
I can always tell when someone learned off of Wing Lam's videos, because I know all the mistakes, and when someone teaches that as doctrine, I know that their only source was the videos.

Hmm, looks like this is a thread that Kung Lek and GHD should read! Also, every OTHER vid student that says the vids AREN'T marked....

Thanks Gene for once again proving that I'm correct 99.9% of the time ...Much Luv Brotha!

~Wen~

[Ben Gash]

NP and NS, Plum Blossom is WAY more common a name in southern styles. CLF has 3 hand sets, a Dao set, 3 Suang Dao sets, a spear set, a fan set and a double hook set all called plum blossom.
Hung Gar has a hand set, a spear set, a dao set and a suang dao set.
Yeah, so Gene, on the level, are WLE's video sets marked intentionally in the forms or do you mean that there were simply a few mistakes in the theory and narrative?

[NorthernShaolin]

BG,

Thanks. I knew that but I forgot to mention it.

[Ravenshaw]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
are WLE's video sets marked intentionally in the forms or do you mean that there were simply a few mistakes in the theory and narrative?

From what I've seen of the videos, the forms were presented in the same way that they were taught in the school at the time. Sifu Lam will change minute details in the form from time to time that reflect his evolving understanding of the form, which I think every master must do... if they are improving anyway.

But, of course, the videos did not reflect the changes (again, it's never something really big) as they happened. Gene knows the sets intimately enough that he may be able to tell who learned from video...

But then maybe he's talking about theory. My guess is that this is the case.

[GeneChing]

...but in truth, they were just mistakes. Sifu Lam's former wife advertised the entire series in IKF when we had only one video made. Think about that for a second. 80 videos advertised, 1 made. So what happened? Well, we made a lot of videos pretty ****ing quickly. The WLE series was made with in a year and a half at a rate of about a video a week. That's film time, script, narration, editing, post production. Some of the bigger videos took longer - a few weeks. Some of the shorter ones, well, our record was that one of them was churned out in a single day - filmed in the morning, edited and scripted in the afternoon and narrated in the evening. It always amused me when people commented on the production value of that series, since that rate of production allowed very little time for corrections - and while I still stand behind the content, anyone is boudn to make mistakes moving at that rate. In a weird way, it was great training for what I do now - having to work so frantically. But such is the nature of working this silver mine of the martial arts, you gotta dig, dig, dig to find the motherlode, and keep your eye on that canary because there's a lot of bad gas.

Most of the errors were in the Hung Gar series, since neither I, nor our editor, knew that system very well. The Shaolin series is prettty clean, on the whole, but there are still little indicators. I should also mention that this 'video error catching' system is far from foolproof, since it would have given NS a false positive on this 4-5 petal issue, and he knows more about BSL than I do.

The funny part is that not only do I know the forms, as Ravenshaw points out, I know my own writing. When writing the scripts, sometimes Sifu Lam gave me a good chunk of material to write about, sometimes I had to dig. No one knows how many gaps I filled in except for Sifu Lam and me. And no one ever will. What makes this funny is that many people have taken these videos (and successive writings in articles and books) as some kind of doctrine. Even now, I'll occassionally get an article submission and think, "hmm, that sounds strangely familiar - hold the phone - I ****ing wrote that!" I've written a lot now - hundreds of published articles, hundreds of video scripts - in fact I've written more for www.martialartsmart.com and Kung Fu Tai Chi then I did for Wing Lam. And that doesn't even count all this free stuff here on the forum So it haunts me in funny ways. I had one article submission about a month ago that was direct plagery of my old stuff. Word for word. I called the author on it, and he grovelled apologies - I could see him kowtowing backwards, trying to slither out. I kept hoping he would try to publish it in another mag, but he never did, at least not to my knowledge.

[blooming lotus]

everyone makes mistakes..and I think we've all acknowledged that while videos will give you some instruction...it will never replace the personal training/intruction...

don't feel bad...busy happens to the best of us and if someones taking anything they can't double check as gospel....well more fool them

[Ravenshaw]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Sifu Lam's former wife advertised the entire series in IKF when we had only one video made.

I don't doubt that for a second . About two years ago she did the same with the Hung Gar book. I'm not sure if the quality was impacted in a very meaningful way, though. But, like Gene, I'm a Northern guy after all .

[GeneChing]

...and it certainly had it's impact. You can't promise something and not deliver it for a year, especially if you've taken the money. I think most everyone is reliefed that her time is past. I'm just tired of saying "I told you so" there...

It's true, everyone makes mistakes, both on video, in print and in person. One would hope that we keep mistakes to a minimum in print and on video. In a weird way, it worked to my advantage - in fact, in my own spin-doctor way, some people even seem to think it's good that there are mistakes to be able to tell 'video' students from 'real' students. Personally, I'm flattered when I see my own work repeated in others - maybe a bit embarrassed for them for not finding a better source than me.

But back to something more OT, can anyone find another reference to a four-petalled plum flower in BSL or anything else for that matter?

[Kennyfist]

I know this has been discussed before but after reading some threads and replies lets analyse this again:

Weighing the pro's and cons of kungfu videos:

1) Some will use it to learn the form....I heard some then open a school and teach

2) Some will use it as a learning tool to help remember what they've learnt.

3) Some will use it for research purpose ie compare lineages and similarities and differences between each generation or lineage.

4) Some may be just curious to see what the style is like and the particular lineage/ sifu.

5) Some will use it to glean a few gems here and there ( hey Gene, you might advocate this one )

6) Some might see it as a way to preserve or document the sets or style for future generations or reference ( How many styles have died out or loss content due to cultural revolution and wushu-ization------and wouldn't you wonder what Ku Yu Cheung, Wan Lai sheng, Yang Shao Hou, Wong Fei Hung, Lam Sai Wing , Sun Lu Tang etc looked like when they did forms?----so why not capture the sifu in action and take advantage of technology since we've got it?) Would you agree that video is a livelier way to document then photos/book?

But..........

1) How many sifus would put their best in a commercial video...
2) Some say or rumour videos have been intentionally marked or sets altered to distinguish "video" students from "real" students..
3) Then we have to allow for mistakes made by editor, performer etc.
4 ) What if the sets have elements withheld or the performer has fake lineage or false claim----I won't name an example but suspect in PRC one set of vcds at least)

Now......
1) Those of you who want to learn from video------- if there are things withheld ----- then you are not potentially getting the full thing. So you need personal instruction--- but hey, if they were available readily then why bother get the videos in the first place?
And those performers ---why advertise "learn X or Y" from this video etc. ?

[Kennyfist]

2) Those of you who want to use it as a learning tool....but hey there are things withheld---no matter since you've got personal instruction.... but wait----there are things intentionally changed or there are mistakes in the videos and if they are not corrected then how good a learning tool is it? If they continue to sell the videos with the mistakes in it , and to the unaware, then their "learning tool" is a "misleading or harming tool". So to use these videos you have to learn the mistakes and/or the alterations in them as well?

3) For those of you who want to use it as a research tool to compare lineages eg compare Yim Shang Mo lineages to Chan Kwok Wei to Johnny So to LTH or Wing Lam to Wong Jack Man etc... but how can you do that properly if there are mistakes in the video and/ or alterations? The differences you note---how are you going to discern whether its true lineage difference or pure mistake or pure alteration? Doesn't sound too useful?

4) For those of you who think about documentation of a style or a set..... do we need to mention the mistakes and alterations again? In next few generations if the videos are still around, don't youy think that the mistakes and alterations can be a cause for confusion and lineage debates----eg oh so and so did it this way so it has to be correct (but what about the video mistakes and markers?) There is potential for the style or lineage and sets to be misrepresented.

Don't take anything personally but try to be objective and there are many things to think about...... There is things that need ethical considerations. Would you want someone to misrepresent your style and have a large crowd taking the wrong things as doctrine?

Having said all this, its not to say that you won't find good videos. In the PRC there are fakes and there are also big names like Chen Zhenglei who put out audio-visual material and read a comment somewhere that a set is exactly the same as how it was taught to a "real" student. Now should they be afraid that all of a sudden lots of video-sifus will start opening schools? Well, lineage is quite easy to verify..... ask the sifu did X learn from you? Anyway with something like taijiquan, you can get a fair idea how good someone is by watching them do the form, kung fu is kung fu....

(Gene...no hard feelings! But there are issues to consider ....
)

[GeneChing]

The idea of documentation is a bit of an oxymoron when it comes to martial arts. Martial arts are vital - in essence they only exist when being practiced. It's not meant to be set in stone. It's meant to be adaptable. If a fighter cannot adapt, he dies.

Recording the martail arts can grasp the external - the skin - but never the flesh, never bone, never marrow. Chen Zhenglei's stuff is a good example. His VCDs don't even begin to capture what it's like to stand next to him when he emits fajing. Does that make them worthless? Not at all. A shadow is better complete darkness. Probably most of the people here have not had the priviledge of direct experience of Chen's skill, so a VCD is good to spread his teachings. It's diluted, but at least it's something.

FWIW, we venerate these old masters, probably out of our own egotistical desire for some sort of 'perfection', but even they made mistakes and changes in their documentation. Take Sun Lutang's variation in San Ti. That's the basic posture of Xingyi, and it cleary changes in photographs.

Spending too much time thinking about whether to use videos and books for research tools is silly. Use all the tools you can lay your hands on. Martial arts is hard stuff. Use the cliff notes when you can, but read the originals too.