Cha Chuan #4

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

2) Those of you who want to use it as a learning tool....but hey there are things withheld---no matter since you've got personal instruction.... but wait----there are things intentionally changed or there are mistakes in the videos and if they are not corrected then how good a learning tool is it? If they continue to sell the videos with the mistakes in it , and to the unaware, then their "learning tool" is a "misleading or harming tool". So to use these videos you have to learn the mistakes and/or the alterations in them as well?

3) For those of you who want to use it as a research tool to compare lineages eg compare Yim Shang Mo lineages to Chan Kwok Wei to Johnny So to LTH or Wing Lam to Wong Jack Man etc... but how can you do that properly if there are mistakes in the video and/ or alterations? The differences you note---how are you going to discern whether its true lineage difference or pure mistake or pure alteration? Doesn't sound too useful?

There is things that need ethical considerations. Would you want someone to misrepresent your style and have a large crowd taking the wrong things as doctrine?

there are fakes and there are also big names ... ask the sifu did X learn from you?

(Gene...no hard feelings! But there are issues to consider ....
)

there is one video series which Gene mentioned earlier that was earmarked to me has having forms that were famous for being long and difficult having been abridged.

one sifu stated that if you put our forms to video format you loose control over who gets to learn your (secret) material. We as gui lo don't fully understand the nature of a rivalry quite the way tcmasters do. our school will not produce a video for a mass production group until our rival's children are pushing up flowers. Sifu taught a few of his rival's students and lived to regret it. The Green Dragon guys probably learned this the hard way, too: they do things in an unorthodox manner and get flack for it. especially since most of the noise makers work for other interests and marketing platforms...so, rivalry is still a factor and i think the predominant one. Elsewise, why would only certain forms from a system be available when there are many better more advanced forms that require "personal instruction".

[David Jamieson]

kungfu secrets in the here and now are virtually useless. Back in the day when it meant life or death to hold your training ways in secret then it made sense.

Nowadays, my glock fu beats anyone's kungfu or for that matter any empty hand martial art.

This however is not a reason to not practice. Kungfu still develops a lot of very beneficial things, but the only secret there ever was was that it is hard work and practice. Oh, and the physics and mechanical structure must be correct as well but those are small things to understand.

By the way, I ain't no gwai lo I was born in the country I live in and have been here all my life.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Nowadays, my glock fu beats anyone's kungfu or for that matter any empty hand martial art.

By the way, I ain't no gwai lo I was born in the country I live in and have been here all my life.

Certainly not toe-to-toe? probably not at less than seven meters either. i didn't realize they allow glocks in flocks...especially in the hands of those kanooks in flux...

[David Jamieson]

Certainly not toe-to-toe? probably not at less than seven meters either. i didn't realize they allow glocks in flocks...especially in the hands of those kanooks in flux...

seven meters is more than 20 feet! dude, you'd have to be superman to cover that distance faster than a finger squeezes. lol

Do kungfu because you love to do it.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

in the mid eighties the FBI had a problem: they were teaching that even inside 7 meters/yards the handgun was supreme. Until a Korean arts practicioner challenged their fastest guns on video and beat all of them from a starting position 7yards apart standing at rest one on one. you can probably find it in back issues of guns'n'ammo.

[David Jamieson]

1. I don't read guns and ammo

2. I would like to see that video

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

i first saw it in '88 or '89. check with some of the older magazines. they'll probably know or have a library you can request articles from.

also there's a more developed version of this technique i saw in the publications section of a reloading catalog ten years ago. It is particularly effective against Berretta users as you can take the slide off the frame.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

After reading y'all's comments on Cha and perusing a library of forms i've got a few questions:

If Cha is the government approved foundation for Wu Shu just how good is it, really?

and since there are three main styles which of those three is more fight orientated and which was the dominant style used for the formation of wushu?

which style became the foundation of the style the chinese military uses?

[GeneChing]

Here are the lyrics for Cha Quan #4 from Master Zhang Lingmei, who was a student of Master Liu Chunfang and Grandmaster Pang Lingtai. I've been looking all over for the Cha #4 Lyrics from Wing Lam, which I thought I once had, but can't find now. Maybe I never had them...

Cha Quan #4
Beginning Posture
Feet Together, Salute
Crouching stance, leading palm
Bow stance, upward pushing palm
Springing kick, striking palm
Empty stance, striking palm strike
Side bow stance, flashing palm
Resting stance, snapping palm
Advance a step, punching fist
Springing kick, pushing palm
Bow stance, thrusting palm
Half squat stance, twine-cutting fist
Empty stance, pressing palm
Lifting knee, pushing palm
Smearing palm, hooking kick
Grabbing hand, whipping kick
Feet together, double swinging palms
Bow stance, horizontal striking palm
Resting stance, flashing palm
Feet together, supporting palm
Turning body, arcing hook hand
Continuous low springing kicks
Jumping springing kick
Bow stance, blocking punch fist
Empty stance, elbow block
Horse stance, blocking punch fist
Lifting knee, raising palm
Stamping step, pressing hand, chopping fist
Bow stance, rising palm
Bow stance, hanging hook hand
Empty stance, separating palm
Jumping, turning body, spinning outside crescent kick
Empty stance, raising palm
Stamping step, arcing palm
Heel kick, striking palm
Bow stance, chopping fist
Horse stance, punching fist
Back cross-step, grabbing shoulder, pressing elbow
Horse stance, blocking punch
Lifting knee, upper-cutting fist
Bow stance, X-shaped hands
Jump, double crossing palm
Bow stance, bending elbow
Cross step, chopping back palm
Horse Stance, blocking punch
Bow stance, double pushing palms
Resting stance, brushing hand
Bow stance, striking palm
Empty stance, pressing palm
Step forward, smearing palm
Step forward, slapping foot
Bow stance, horizontal striking palm
Resting stance, X-shaped hands
Side sole kick
Springing kick, striking palm
Horse stance, horizontal striking palm strike
Back step, wheel-pressing palm
Lifting knee, fastening fist
Walking step, spearing palm
Turning body, horizontal palm, crescent kick
Lifting knee, pressing support palm
Lifting knee, punching forward
Bow stance, punching fist
Supporting palm, punching fist
Feet together, swinging palm
Back step, pressing palm
Ending posture
Feet together, holding fists

[NorthernShaolin]

Gene,

Hey I saw the pic you took of me. Thanks!!

This also reminds me that I think I have CH'a #4 lyrics somewhere too. I have to look for them.

YuanZhideDiZhen,

I'm going to take a guess in answering your question. The Yang branch was the most popular branch and there were many masters who influenced the appointed government committee to use this branch for the military and also to use the same branch as a base for Wu Shu. It does not mean that it was the best fighting branch of the three. Just more instructors who knew this particular branch of Ch'a. Ch'a #4 was picked for WuShu because the committee felt that this set presented the best example of what the essense of Ch'a is in one set. During this time, PRC attempted to condense many sets of one style into one set that would best represent the style.

[GeneChing]

Glad you liked the pic - it's always great to see our forum members out in the field representing. It's especially cool to see members judging or winning (as opposed to the other poseurs ).

There's also a lyric set for Cha #4 in Wushu Among Chinese Moslems (titled Zha-Style Shaodw Boxing). I have a copy right here on my desk (since obviously, I'm doing a bit of Cha research right now). Maybe if I get really, really enthusiastic, I'll copy it out here (but hopefully someone else will beat me to it.

[Royal Dragon]

On the subject of learning from videos, and the producers holding back...many live teachers do the same in person anyway. What difference does it make if you are learning the errors from video, or the teacher? In the end, you must master the principles and self correct..right?

[NorthernShaolin]

RD,

You're right!

Gene,

Here it is:

This _____ means I could not translate the meaning.

Ch'a Chuan Number 4 from the Yang Branch

1. Opening
2. Fairyman steps up , Spreads cloths (with a) pair (of) fist
3. Step Sideways, Hook left hand, Circle Right Palm
4. Uphold (and) lay hands on
5. Circle Right arm, Push forward
6. Raise Kick
7. Draw out Palm, Raise and lace saddle
8. Flash palm in crushing step
9. Harness step, soar (or Dash) against ______, Right foot springs up
10. Go thru the palms, spring kick
11. Skip step, insert palm (Night Demon Searches the sea)
12. Push palm, sit on horse (Loosen Palm)
13. Circle Palm, Kick up Sand, Three Steps
14. Harness Step, soar _____, right foot springs up
15. Go thru the palms, wind cart, hang kick (arrow kick)
16. Thrust fist forward in bow step
17. Bend arm in empty step (rub a ghost fist)
18. Revolve body, receive strike, sit on horse
19. Draw out hands, swing palms-split palms, thrust body
20. Step forward, cut with palms (White Crane Spreads Its Wings), Go thru the shoulders
21. Raise hooks hands (Black Birds spreads its wings)
22. Revolve palms (form a flower), left hook, right palm, raise left knee (Whale shuts destructive mouth)
23. Enter the enemy and destroy - Turn back his head to examine it.
24. Revolve the body, reverse lotus kick. (Step up and grab ghost palm)
25. Spread hands, raise hands, attain firm hips like a mountain
26. Cut onions, two tigers accent mountain (toe Kick)
27. Roll palms, stir down strikes (Right, Left, Right)
28. Harness step, chicken claws its shoulders
29. Vipor snake receives strike inside
30. Raise step, bestride a tiger, accent a mountain
31. Cross arms in a bow step
32. Open step, carry in palms, go thru head with elbow
33. step to the right, back hand strike
34. Harness step, overturn sinews fiercely
35. Raise step, protect with knees, double push palms
36. Purge step, gracefully obstruct
37. Left hook, right palm to face, left bow horse
38. Enter the enemy and destroy, turn back his head
39. Right round kick, lazy dragon straighten its waist
40. Fierce left side stomp kick
41. Go thru the heaven with a cannon
42. Left reverse sweep, throw sand
43. Double raise kick
44. Thrust fist forward in bow step
45. Push palm, sit on horse (loosen palm)
46. same as #22
47. Left kick - Draw out and exchange pillars
48. Defect power, slip strike, soar like fire to heaven
49 Press left palm, right punch, press left palm - go thru the sleeves, stop the heart cross fist
50. Stand up with left hook
51. Step back, thru the palms, close form

[northernArts]

If you want to see a cool video of zha quan go to northern shaolin montreal then click media. The video as at the bottom of the page.

peace.

[Ravenshaw]

Here's a video of Cha #4 you guys might find interesting. It's the BSL-flavored version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObBRkifC2sM

The performance is crappy, but the first two thirds of the video are pretty neat.