Dai Nim Tao

[PQS]

Can anyone help please, what is Dai Nim Tao ? is it a form? or a sub form?
Many Thanks
Peter

[Midnight]

I have no personal knowledge of this, however I did find this online which may help.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/what/forms/dainimtao.html

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Dai Lin Tau (Big First Training) (Not "Nim") is the second section of basics Leung Jan Sifu kept from his original Siu Lin Tau (Little First Training) form to teach his Koo Lo pupils. It contains 3 sections with 3 cycles and also includes Som Bai Fut and Sae Mun Bai Jee.

The term you are refering to as Dai Nim Tau (Big Idea) is most likely the Lee Shing version of the Koo Lo set as preserved by his pupils. Joseph Lee has an article that briefly talks about this set.


Hope this helps!

[CFT]

I don't want to start off another lineage war or anything, but just genuinely curious .....

What extra benefit does practicing Dai Lin(Nim) Tau confer on the practitioner? What attributes are you training for (to paraphrase Ernie)?

Are the movements, etc. the same as Siu Lin(Nim) Tau but choreographed differently?

[[~T~]G]

Siu Nim Tao is included in Dai Nim Tao as a single set (DNT has 12 sets). This set contains something similar to the first section of the SNT, where the fook sau moves horizontally outwards from the chest.

The other 11 sets has alot of movements different to Hong Kong/Yip Man Wing Chun

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I don't want to start off another lineage war or anything, but just genuinely curious .....

No problem as this info. is pretty common. There really is nothing to battle over!

What extra benefit does practicing Dai Lin(Nim) Tau confer on the practitioner? What attributes are you training for (to paraphrase Ernie)?

The human body can only move in so many ways. The root actions being taught in the SLT/DLT not only change your tendons/sinews, teach bridge reference points, ging paths, etc..

Are the movements, etc. the same as Siu Lin(Nim) Tau but choreographed differently?

They are similar but different. A bit of an Older flavor if that is a good way to say it!


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Siu Nim Tao is included in Dai Nim Tao as a single set (DNT has 12 sets). This set contains something similar to the first section of the SNT, where the fook sau moves horizontally outwards from the chest.

The term you are using to describe the entire Sup Yee Jong set from Leung Jan Sifu as Da Nim Tao is Lee Shing's term. He called the 12 set Dai Nim (Big Idea) but traditionally Dai Lin Tau is just one section. Leung Jan's set does contain 12 sections to its training and begins with SLT and finishes with Fook Fu. JR

[Nick Forrer]

Hi

I have a friend who does Gulao WC and he has shown me the DLT a couple of times.

Things that stuck out to me at the time were

-The way they do Sam bai fut (three prayers to buddha i.e. the first sec. of SLT)- here as fuk goes forward wu sau comes back at the same time i.e. both hands are in action at once.

-The use of multiple elbows from different angles (like Muay Thai)

-An action to help you escape from an arm lock which is not in any of the Yip man forms (at least it is not performed that way)

-Recovery from death i.e. a kind of upward spiralling motion (as i remember it)

=and subduing the tiger- a bit like the elbow biu combination in the first section of Biu gee.

This was just my outsiders impression though so take it for what its worth i.e. very little!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Nick,


All people do things with their own emphacis so I will just reply with what I know is the standard way with the Fung's of Koo Lo! JR


-The way they do Sam bai fut (three prayers to buddha i.e. the first sec. of SLT)- here as fuk goes forward wu sau comes back at the same time i.e. both hands are in action at once.

Never heard of this nor have I seen it done this way! SBF does follow a different path than straight forward/backward as the angle is different and both hands only cycle together when the transition is in progress. Otherwise the rear hand Wu stays slightly lower and in your center while the other hands cycles. JR

-The use of multiple elbows from different angles (like Muay Thai)

Totally different as we do not throw elbows anything like Muay Thai. WC elbows are WC elbows. They cant be that different. JR

-An action to help you escape from an arm lock which is not in any of the Yip man forms (at least it is not performed that way)

Not sure which escape you are talking about so I cannot answer! JR

-Recovery from death i.e. a kind of upward spiralling motion (as i remember it)

Wan Wun Yiu uses a multi directional body/spine torqe and not just upward spiralling. JR

=and subduing the tiger- a bit like the elbow biu combination in the first section of Biu gee.

Totally different as Fook Fu is used for a totally diferent purpose and anlge which would not include any elbow skills. JR

This was just my outsiders impression though so take it for what its worth i.e. very little!

Thanks for your input. This would seem more like the Lee Shing version of Koo Lo/Pin Sun way which is a bit different from the way the Fung's teach the art. JR

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Jim

Double checked with my friend yesterday and firstly the elbows he showed me were not in his form but from something else his sifu showed him and secondly you're right- the wu sau does stay stationary as the fook sau moves -must have been an optical illusion!

The arm lock escape comes from crouching right down and holding your arm straight out behind you, 90 degrees to the body as if someone has you in that position.

Anyway Ill shut up now.

[reneritchie]

For clarity's sake:

Dai Lien Tao (Da Lian Tou) is one of the 12 sets (short series of movements) taught by Leung Jan to his Gulao, Heshan, Guangdong students after he retired and moved back there from Foshan (where he taught Chan Wah-Shun, Yip Man's sifu).

Dai Nim Tao (Da Nian Tou) is the name Lee Shing used to refer to all 12 of the sets.

Lien and Nim are different characters with different meanings.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by reneritchie
For clarity's sake:

Dai Lien Tao (Da Lian Tou) is one of the 12 sets (short series of movements) taught by Leung Jan to his Gulao, Heshan, Guangdong students after he retired and moved back there from Foshan (where he taught Chan Wah-Shun, Yip Man's sifu).

Dai Nim Tao (Da Nian Tou) is the name Lee Shing used to refer to all 12 of the sets.

Lien and Nim are different characters with different meanings.

Thank you for the clarification, Rene. Now that we know the difference between the two terms; may I ask who is Lee Shing? What is his relationship to Leung Jan? What kind of WC does he practice?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I know this was directed towards Rene but I thought I could help! JR


may I ask who is Lee Shing?

Lee Shing was one of the first people to bring Wing Chun to the UK. He originally trained Koo Lo/Pin Sun WC with Fung Sang sifu (who is still alive) and then trained mainly with the Yip clan including YM. Lee Shing loved Martial Art and also did a variety of stuff outside of WC. JR

What is his relationship to Leung Jan?

None. JR

What kind of WC does he practice?

He main focus is a slightly modified version of Yip Man WC based on his experience. After one trained the Yip Man WC from him then they would be shown the PSWC. The Pin Sun WC that he taught also made use of YM body mechanics versus the Koo Lo proper mechanics and seems to be slightly modified compared to what his teacher preserves as does the Fung family. JR


Regards,

[canglong]

The chan Buddhism experience of reality occurs in three stages. Each stage serves to prepare the student for the next stage in the progression with the ultimate goal of enlightenment, or realizing one's true potentials through understanding and experiencing one's self-identity and true nature.

The second stage consist of two phases: understanding oneself (one's self identity) and one's relationship to the larger world (one's true nature). In Chan Buddhism, the "self" is called Siu Nim, meaning "Little Idea". To arrive at the stage of the "Little Idea" requires a strong sense of personal identity -- not a small accomplishment. To attain the first phase of reality is to understand one's self-identity through experience, education and reactions to influences from the outside world. The second phase involves understanding the surrounding universe. In Chan Buddhism, this understanding of the universe is termed Daai Nim , meaning "Big Idea." Through training, the student comes to understand and feel a connection to the universe. This awareness leads to a harmony with time, space and energy, the fundamental layer of reality. Rather than seeing oneself as a limited, unchanging and finite creature, one becomes united with the universe: limitless, changing, and infinite. While the world is continuously changing and moving, the change and movement occurs within time, space, and energy. When one realizes the "Big Idea," he fully realizes he is part of that changing energy moving within space and time. One continues to exist as a "Little Idea" with his own views and experiences of the world, but he also represents infinite potential. To continue the tea cup example, this stage would be the realization of the sides of the cup and the impermanent nature of material objects. The sides of the cup are time, space, and energy, and the impermanent nature of the cup (i.e., the contents of the teacup change from moment to moment by such actions as heating and cooling or filling and draining) is the flow and change of time space and energy.

Mastering Kung Fu pg86

[Phenix]

The third, and possibly greatest, addition by Oyama in his synthesis of kyokushin karate is the concept of Zen. In a Zen state of mind, one thinks nothing. The mind is completely cleared of all intruding thoughts and emotions. The mind simply relaxes; it does not focus precisely on any particular detail. The mind focuses on nothing, yet perceives everything. Can this concept not be put to great use in karate?


Today in Japan, Mas Oyama heads the International Karate Organization, Kyokushin, one of the largest karate federations in the world.
While fighting, you stand facing your opponent. When the opponent attacks, you must quickly determine an attack is coming, what form it will take, where it is aimed, etc. All of this information must be relayed to the brain, where the decision is made about how to react. The brain must send a message to the body, telling it how to defend itself. This entire process takes only a fraction of a second, but what if the incoming attack is a fraction of a second faster?

If, on the other hand, you are in a Zen state while in combat, you perceive not the individual attack, but the entire situation. Your mind and body act as one, bypassing the normal reaction time to automatically perform the necessary defense measure. The normal thought process in an attack is: perception, contemplation and, finally, reaction. With Zen, you can bypass the contemplation phase and react directly after perception. Oyama, having realized this, has gone so far as to say "Karate is Zen," a thus, he makes Zen an integral part of his system.


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If, on the other hand, you are in a Zen state while in combat, you perceive not the individual attack, but the entire situation. Your mind and body act as one, bypassing the normal reaction time to automatically perform the necessary defense measure. The normal thought process in an attack is: perception, contemplation and, finally, reaction. With Zen, you can bypass the contemplation phase and react directly after perception.-------- Mas Oyama


This above is Non-dual. Non Subjective..........




"When the opponent attacks, you must quickly determine an attack is coming, what form it will take, where it is aimed, etc. All of this information must be relayed to the brain, where the decision is made about how to react. The brain must send a message to the body, telling it how to defend itself"

This above has to do with Thought or Niem in Cantonese. It is a kind of Subjective observation process. This is not Zen at all.

Non Dual or Non subjective or Zen state is a realization.
It is NOT about to understand and feel a connection or unite to the universe.

Chan is:
In a Zen state of mind, one thinks nothing. The mind is completely cleared of all intruding thoughts and emotions. The mind simply relaxes; it does not focus precisely on any particular detail. The mind focuses on nothing, yet perceives everything. -----Mas Oyama.

It needs only a single step------
The mind simply relaxes; it does not focus precisely on any particular detail. The mind focuses on nothing, yet perceives everything.