Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, Wing Chun

[yylee]

geee...., Cantonese is a dying language/dialect?!

someone told me if you read Tong dynasty poetries out loud, using Cantonese pronounciation will sound way more natural than Mandarin. Mandarin is a relatively newer dialect, I believed it was first popularized by the Qing government.

anyway, but the popularity of Mandarin is surely there and gaining year after year.

some Chinese do pronounce "Wing"(praising) or "Weng" (external) with a "V" sound done by a little lip byting. May be "Ving" is closer to the FatShan dialect which YM spoke.

Cantonese is actually the official dialect of the Canton province. Among Cantonese there are probably at least half a dozen sub-dialects. Although these sub-dialects are close to each other, there are many interesting differences in tones.

Rene:
One time I showed some Chinese characters to my Japanese and Korean friends, they pronounce them in ways that are very close to Cantonese.

[ntc]

yylee:

I second you on your reply.... Cantones is the MOST spoken dialect outside of China. I myself speak Cantonese being born in Macau, and the dialect being the primary conversation language in both Hong Kong and Macau, and from what I am finding, most of the Chinatowns in the US and Canada. And also, Cantonese has nine tones, and is still taught as so today, especially in Canton. Can't really see it being extinct and dying.

Regarding Chun or Tsun, it really is just a pronunciation issue. The proper Cantonese pronunciation has a "TCH' type sound to it. Both are very close, and in fact, a lot of other Chinese characters with this type of sound begin with either, depending on the publication. For example, you will find the last name "Cheng" oftentimes written as "Tseng", "Cheung" as "Tseung", etc. "Ch..." and "Ts" are commonly used as the English pronunciation of the actual "TCH" sound. Until an official standard (like the Mandarin pinyin standard) is used, you will continue to see the use of "TS" and "CH".

Tom, I quote you: "I know that lots of wc folks clamp and use muscle in the ygkym-
I dont- there is no forced locking in...the settling of the pelvis is natural"
--> I highly doubt this because:
(a) Most of Yip Man's students in Hong Kong have a very poor command of English (especially the earlier ones), and could care less how it was spelt in English
(b) Leung Ting used Ving Tsun in the English language newspapers (like the South China Morning Post and the Hong Kong Standard) as he was one of the first, if not the first, to actually publicize the art openly in Hong Kong using the news media and television. He could just as easily have used Wing Chun to begin with.
(c) Most of Yip Man's students remain loyal to Yip Man, even to this day, thirty years after his death. In China, loyalty and dedication to a kung fu art and to the teacher is often times a lifelong thing, which is why you will not be surprised to see a lot of students having followed their teachers for decades.

Over the past twenty years, I have seen the whole topic of "Ving Tsun" being a "special" meaning being pushed and extrapolated, especially in the Western world as Leung Ting's organization got bigger. This, in addition to fuel added by quabbles between students from his organization and other ones like William Cheung's, made this even more of a hot topic. But in all honesty, it is just simply Wing/Ving Chun/Tsun... just look at the Chinese characters... that is what counts... you do NOT have different Chinese characters distinguishing one from the other (other than possibly Weng Chun, which I haven't had the time to take a look at)

[Phil Redmond]

"Phil,
The Vietnamese learn WC from the Chinese there. The language mimics the Chinese sound and it sounds more closer to Ving Tsun. For the linguist, it spells as: Ving Xuan where the X is the equivalence of Ts."

You could be right but, I speak the Cantonese of Canton proper. That's what I leaned in College. According to Yale University Romanization, (which is used by the US Foreign Service Dept). the pronounciation is Wing Chun. I know there are many different dialects in Sounthern China. So there are possibly other pronounciations in dialects I don't know.

Tom,
Romanizing a word in another language can be tricky. I personally have yet to hear someone from HK or Canton pronounce Wing with a V sound. My present Chen TC instructor just moved to Detroit from Canton. He says, Wing Chun. Lot's of us add 'R" sound to Cantonese also. Like Gor Sau. There are no 'R' sounds in Cantonese. As far as Cantonese dying. I don't think so. People in the Philippines have to learn Tagolog but cultural pride keeps them speaking their provincial dialects like Versian, or Kampampangnan. It would be sad to see any people's dialect die.

[ntc]

Good points, Phil. I definitely agree with you about pronouncing "wing" versus "ving"..... in fact, the "v" sound really doesn't exist in the Cantonese language, not to my knowledge. Most of the nine tones are nasal and throat sounds.

[reneritchie]

FWIW, it looks like Tom was posting something originally written by the late Moy Yat sifu, so while he may or may not share some/all of the expressed opinions, they look to be Moy Yat's.

[Alpha Dog]

Mandarin sounds way better than Cantonese.

And as for Tang Dynasty poetry, the courtly language of the day was very similar to the dialect spoken in FuJian province today (mingnanyu), which is virtually the same as Taiwanese.

All this, of course, has nothing to do with Wing Chun.

[LC-NYC]

Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, Wing Chun Kuen, Spring Boxing, Everlasting Boxing, Fukien Wing Chun,Street Combat, Chinese Boxing, Southern Boxing, Close Range Combat, Inspired by Wing Chun, Wu -Tang, and the wu, the we and the wa!
No wonder every one is confuse!

We are in the U.S.A and Wing Chun sounds very good to me. It's spelled the way it sounds. Wing Chun, Wing Chun, Wing Chun! toilet water my ***

When can we just all get along?

[reneritchie]

AD,

Probably similar to the original language of Cantonese opera, as well.

[Tom Kagan]

ntc,

Tom, I quote you: "I know that lots of wc folks clamp and use muscle in the ygkym-

When did I ever say this? Not only do I usually ignore that type of conversation, I don't even like to use abbreviations most of the time.

Leung Ting uses "Wing Tsun," not "Ving Tsun." The reason given why Yip Man did not choose that spelling in 1967 is because "WT" was the way the SiHings used to tease Leung Ting for writing the articles. They meant it as "Waste Time" (the same way "EnterTheWhip" was trying to troll Phil - people haven't evolved much in 40 years regardless of the evolution of their respective language. ) As stories go, the biggest objector to that spelling was Leung Sheung.

Additionally, there are a few groups out there that use entirely different Chinese ideograms than the ones for "Wing/Ving or "Weng" and "Chun/Tsun" - the ideograms, transliterations, and pronunciations are all different. It's still essentially the same art, though.

Phil,

I agree: It is kind of sad when a language dies and only the very few determined to keep it alive are the ones fighting to speak it. The "V" referred to the already dead portion of the language of Cantonese known only to scholars. Sure, Moy Yat did give a dire prediction. But, he did spot the prediction 100 years. Still, the number of Mandarin speakers here in New York's Chinatown now rivals the number of Cantonese already.

On the other hand, no matter how tragic, it is laughable when someone tries to keep a language alive that should rightly be dead. Check out http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3018411.stm

Rene,

You're right on both counts. It's Moy Yat's words. I used to do the English editing for him when I was around, though.

And you're right: there is no way to know how things were pronounced 300 years ago. But, I think a small group of well educated native speakers (among them three linguists) in 1967 had a better idea about it than I or a French Canadian could ever dream of. And, they had far great motivation for finding a better transliteration that we could expect to look for because they were trying to avoid putting "WC" on their building in a British Colony.


Regional pronunciation differences of tones, fricatives, stop-plosives, etc. will always exist, and the number of differences in any language number usually over 40, not just the basic tones: 4 (Mandarin), 6 or 7 (Cantonese, depending on the scholar), 9 (as ntc claims), or 10 (ancient Cantonese), as suggested here. The real issue is whether the differences create different meanings - different words. It's one thing to have a regional variation. It is quite another thing for a pronunciation difference to produce a "tower of babel" situation.

American English has the word "idea" pronounced "eye - dea" and "aye - dee - er" among quite a few other ways for that one word. It might sound funny for one region to say "idea" to another, but they can and do without misunderstanding because a child's brain is trained from birth to overlook any surface distinction of their native tongue(s) when there actually isn't a distinction to make. But, whether to place the accent on the first or second sylable of "therapist" is a good and somewhat amusing example of an important pronunciation distinction. Just these two cases could trip up a non-native speaker - even a fluent speaker (true story - sorry SiHing )

(Shameless plug: published in 1976, my aunt and uncle, Abe & Betty Lass, compiled a book called "A guide to 8,000 Commonly Mispronounced Words". The book consisted of entries for American English of every major dialect pronounciation difference of the words in the book.)

Quick Coan for Zen crowd: Find 5 words in Modern American English where the letter "w" is used as vowel.

[ntc]

Tom:

My sincere apologies. I put in the wrong quote.... I had just answered another post in another thread, and somehow when I did a cut and paste, the other quote came in. Sorry about the confusion.

This is the quote I meant:

"From that day forward, most all students of Yip Man who remained close to their Sifu adopted the new spelling to honor their Sifu's decision."

[ntc]

LC-NYC:

I quote you:

"When can we just all get along?"

--> AMEN !!!

[yylee]

sure we can all get along.

so let me add one more, shouldn't be a problem, right?

Wuoeng Chun!

this is closer to MY Cantonese, of course I think it sounds more beautiful than others right, AD?

[reneritchie]

French Canadian

Is Old Jong posting on this thread? Me, I'm a transplanted South African of Scotch/Irish and German ancestry Parents named me Rene 'cause it was pretty rare in Jo'burg. Then they moved me here. Go figure.

Not that I think they spoke anything like Africaans in the Liangshan region back then anyway, ech man?

[WCis4me]

Originally posted by reneritchie


Is Old Jong posting on this thread? Me, I'm a transplanted South African of Scotch/Irish and German ancestry Parents named me Rene 'cause it was pretty rare in Jo'burg. Then they moved me here. Go figure.

Not that I think they spoke anything like Africaans in the Liangshan region back then anyway, ech man?

Hi Rene,
You had me fooled lol.
I am French Canadian. Father is French, Mother is english/irish/scottish. My entire family (even great grandparents on both sides) spent most of their lives in Lachine, 43rd street I believe, (mom grew up there). I moved to Vancover when I was young, then went back for awhile as a teen.
I was born in QE hospital downtown Montreal and lived in Ville St. Laurent (which I belive is Pierrefond now) so I guess that makes me one of those 'Montreal girls'.

Regards,
Vicky

[Mr Punch]

I've had three Cantonese instructors, (all of them 'native' speakers with Cantonese as a first language) one from Shanghai, one from Kuala Lumpur, and one from Vancouver.

The one from Shanghai was of the opinion Cantonese was dying. The one from KL thought it was flowering. The one from Vancouver had no opinions on anything (!).

All of them had different pronunciations (esp regarding 'l' and 'n' and the inbetweeny one). All of them used 7 tones.

One of them said wing chun like 'yweung chu'en'. One of them said it like 'pven'g chuun'. One of them didn't say it!

Consequently my Cantonese sucks! (That's the only reason, honestly!)


All I'm trying to say is there are many dialects and provenances, many opinions, but that all languages always change, and while I am for preserving tradition, as languages change, traditions do too, and vice versa. Clinging to a dying language, trying to preserve it in a way that you fondly imagine someone used it at another time in another place, seems to me to be historical vanity, or maybe just historical pigheadedness!