How do we see the developement of Chinese martial arts ?

[Chinwoo-er]

I have been talking to a few friends of mine about this subject. It was quite interesting to see how they answered. Anyway, I would like to open this to KFO people

What do we see as the factors that dictated the developement of CMA ? Let us make a cut-off point to around about 50 years ago in history. So we are not talking about any changes in CMA that existed after 1950s.

Let me use one part of japanese history as an example answer. The Japanese Samurai class is basically built upon conflict. The nessessity of warriors meant that the "value" that was placed on them were intrinsically war-related. The ways of conflicts were then elevated to a moral, philosophical and spiritual way of life of which the emphasis was placed into more about the heart of the warrior. It is through the continuous study of this way of life that the martial arts eventually progressed. Kenjitsu, jujitsu, sojitsu etc etc was the basis was this which eventually led to karate, judo and kendo. So in a sense, the dictating factor in this situation was the evolution of the samurai class.

My friends talked about warlordism and all kinds of bandit-related issues. I would like to know your opnion in this.


cheers

[chen zhen]

Social evolutions will always have an impact on any element of society, and of course also MA.
So, yeah.

[Royal Dragon]

Chinese arts have a complicated evolution due to "War Lording", Conquering's, general lawlessness, the body guard vocations, rebellions against conquering invaders, Monastatic life where the devotion to Qi Gung practice made thier selfdefence systems incredibly strong. Opera houses. And sometimes plain old Chinese mysticisum.

It's not as simple and strait forwards as the Japanese world.

[ZIM]

Fighting is just fighting, even if it includes many different possible reasons why the ppl are in the fight to begin with: war in an army or to defend a peasant's town, self-defense, sport, bodyguarding, just messing about, etc.

And there's different ways that ppl prefer to fight: striking, grappling, groundwork, weapons, etc.

I see the developement of CMAs as just the various training regimens that ppl used in various regions for all of those purposes. Some 'styles' [really training approaches] were more flexible/exandable or popular than others, so we wind up with what we have today.

[David Jamieson]

I think fusion will be the evolution of CMA.

it is happening now. Guys are picking up stuff from Shuai Chiao and incorporating it into their total striking art.

Guys are gloming onto sets from other styles becasue they deal with the ground IE: ditang and dog.

GUys are even mixing and matching but still keeping the traditional methods.

Nothing wrong with that. it'll grow and change with each and every new generation.

It's not about throwing stuff out, it's about growing it into more well rounded systems.

so many styles lost a lot along the way for a million reasons. Now that everybody is blinking in the reality of the light of day, they see that adapt is the way.

Having said that, mma is not the same as traditional systematic methods. I have found that in mma, the focus is sport fighting all to often and huge chunks of importrant training is left in favour of quick results.

At least with Kungfu, you can do it all you life and get benefit from the practice of it for your whole life. the same can't be said of sport mma. there is a window, and then it closes...round about 35-40.

cheers

[Laughing Cow]

Japanese fought mostly among themselves and thus their MA, IMO, are more specialised.

Whereas CMA had to deal with a variety of different warriors and fighting methods and thus needed to adjust more or be wiped out.

Another thing is that most of the really big advancement/refinements of a MA don't happen during era of strife, but during era's of peace.

JMA changed the most during the Edo-era which was a long "peaceful" era.

Just some thoughts.

[Merryprankster]

Having said that, mma is not the same as traditional systematic methods. I have found that in mma, the focus is sport fighting all to often and huge chunks of importrant training is left in favour of quick results.

Blah blah, blahblahblahblah.

At least with Kungfu, you can do it all you life and get benefit from the practice of it for your whole life. the same can't be said of sport mma. there is a window, and then it closes...round about 35-40.

Um, duh. ANY sportfighting is like this. But you can continue to train and continue to compete (should you choose to do so) in less demanding ways. Certainly, my 60 year old boxing coach was not somebody I would have chosen to mess with. Neither is 50 something Master "Danny" who was a Lumpini stadium champion. Both would kick my ass. As would my old 50 something wrestling coach from high school.

Take a "traditional" guy, and if he competes full contact, he'll have the same physical problems inherent to competition. Take a wrestler who just wrestles for the fun of it and maybe does a comp here and there, and they aren't going to have those injuries.

[David Jamieson]

Take a "traditional" guy, and if he competes full contact, he'll have the same physical problems inherent to competition. Take a wrestler who just wrestles for the fun of it and maybe does a comp here and there, and they aren't going to have those injuries.

Well, not necessarily true. Weird things happen in miliseconds.
You could get hurt as easily having fun as you can competing.

It's true though, if you do have the urge to compete, it's better to do it in square circle.
Some of that for real Kungfu is just nasty and simply can't be given a venue due to it's inherent traits of precise and detailed attacks that are more often than not... fatal.

Besides, plenty of traditionally trained guys fight competitively.

cheers

[joedoe]

To be honest I think CMA will develop the same way they have for centuries. People will take on board the useful stuff and the stuff that is no longer relevant will be pushed into the background, or maintained for posterity's sake. People will tailor their arts to themselves and teach their own interpretation of their art to others. And hopefully with each generation of students the art becomes better. This is the way it has always happened.

The main thing I see is a difference in the weapons used. Guns may become a part of many arts. Also more non-lethal weapons will be focused on as schools consider the legal implications of using weaponry.

[shadow]

I tend to believe what Yiquan Grandmaster Wang Hsiang Chai was preaching during the early 1900s is still true today. First, too much emphasis was being put on physical movements, flowery forms and such. And things like traing the chi, the intent and spirit were being ignored. Second the master/ disiple relationship created too much ego jealousy and envy. He thought all students should be taught the same. Moreover Grandmaster Wang thought
ther should be cooperation and sharing of knowlege between different schools to bring CMA as a whole, to higher levels. let us remember Grandmaster Wang was defeating all comers, including Japanese Juijitsu 5th dan and 9th Dan Judo expert Kenchi Swai, A Mongolian Wrestler named Ba Heer aEuropean boxer and CMAs of every concievable style. has to make you wonder, when you see so many CMAs being defeated in NHBs. Maybe Grandmaster wang was right.

[Merryprankster]

Wang WAS right.

Open arts fare better. They benefit from cross-pollination and innovation, and attract more and better students. While there may be more chaff, (not necessarily true IMO, but for the sake of argument) the fields are much much bigger, thus yielding more wheat.

[red5angel]

is "MMA" a style? A way of training? Is it just a title, like New Age religion?

I sometimes have to wonder because often it seems people are using to describeone who trains in various arts. So far, from what I understand there weren't many kungfu guys of old who didn't study one or two arts in their day, often more. Doe sthis make them MMA?

[yenhoi]

MMA = paganism.



Blah, all of the randomness about what to call things and what effects this or that has to do with culture and other randomness randomness , blah. MA is about fighting, do some of it.

Yeah Im talkin to you red5.

[David Jamieson]

I sometimes have to wonder because often it seems people are using to describeone who trains in various arts. So far, from what I understand there weren't many kungfu guys of old who didn't study one or two arts in their day, often more. Doe sthis make them MMA?

No.

MMA(mixed martial arts) is not the same. When one thinks of mma, they are speaking in general terms about modern sportive martial arts, they are not talking about learning 1 or two traditional systems fully and in depth using traditional methodologies. MMA really is a jack of all trades, pretty dang good at a couple of them. Kungfu is mastery of one maybe two system(s) and knowledge of others.

the mma-ist is a bit of a kickboxer, a bit of a grappler, prolly lifts a little and does jack lalane cardio til the cows come home.

It is a completely different methodology from a traditional standpoint.

I do agree with the statement of treating and teaching all the same.
cheers

[bob10]

The four biggest influences on CMA this century were the introduction of firearms, the re-aligning of CMA as cultural arts, the Cultural Revolution and lastly the film and TV industry.

None of them have been particularly postive IMHO - at least in terms of maintaining and developing a martial art.