Deviation from Chi Sau/Sparring thread

[black and blue]

Early on in the thread there was a 'brief' exchange ... which went...


quote:
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Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Chi-sao is meant to teach (among other things) that split second when arms come in contact with each other for the briefest of moments.
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EnterTheWhip: A very common misperception of chi sau.

quote:
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So you've trained for that brief moment. Great......now what about all the other "moments"?
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EnterTheWhip: Something HUGE is missing from your chi sau, if this is your mentality.



I remember reading an article by Emin B ages ago that also said something to the effect that 'WingTsun/Wing Chun's Chi Sau is for that split second in combat when the arms touch'. (Not a direct quote but the general thrust)

When I first read this I thought 'Yep, that makes sense', but the more I train the more I think this doesn't apply to what I do. EnterTheWhip got me thinking

When playing with what we call Feeding Techniques (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...threadid=21786)

from the moment I bridge, Chi Sau's tactile sensitivity and concepts kicks in. Not just for that split second, but in everything else that happens afterwards. How I move, how I position my body and legs, how I aim to control my opponent/close down their angles etc, how I hit and cover at the same time, how I map my attacks and how they flow.

The initial contact lasts a split second, but the actual event itself may last 3,4,5 seconds or more (depending on how much resistance we're working with in our Feeding Techniques), and, I hope, my Chi Sau skills are engaged for the entire time. However long it lasts, I want to have contact the entire time... contact with whatever part of my body is necessary (no jokes, please).

Any thoughts?

Without really wanting to get into what sparring is or isn't, I'm interested to hear how "EnterTheWhip" describes his Chi Sau (what it is, what its for etc)... if you don't mind giving a little more detail that is.

Many thanks

[KenWingJitsu]

That quote not only was made by Sifu Emin, but also by Leun Ting as well when i asked him at a seminar.

So,....I think I'd rather stick to their knowledge and their version than what other version has been whipped up.............

[black and blue]

Who am I to argue with Leung Ting. (and I wouldn't want to argue with someone the size of Emin)

My Sifu, rather like yourself if I remember correctly, also does BJJ. One of the things he talks about is the use of Chi Sau on the ground, and the edge it has given him.

Would this not be an example, albeit in a very literal sense, of using 'full-body' Chi Sau for longer than the said 'split second of contact'?

[Phil Redmond]

black and blue wrote:

from the moment I bridge, Chi Sau's tactile sensitivity and concepts kicks in. Not just for that split second, but in everything else that happens afterwards. How I move, how I position my body and legs, how I aim to control my opponent/close down their angles etc, how I hit and cover at the same time, how I map my attacks and how they flow. The initial contact lasts a split second, but the actual event itself may last 3,4,5 seconds or more (depending on how much resistance we're working with in our Feeding Techniques), and, I hope, my Chi Sau skills are engaged for the entire time. However long it lasts, I want to have contact the entire time... contact with whatever part of my body is necessary (no jokes, please).

IMO this is a really good explaination of what chi sau training is for.
Phil

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by black and blue
I remember reading an article by Emin B ages ago that also said something to the effect that 'WingTsun/Wing Chun's Chi Sau is for that split second in combat when the arms touch'.

This is again the common understanding of chi sau. It is BS.

When I first read this I thought 'Yep, that makes sense',

It used to make sense to me too, but it's a useless concept to me now.

but the more I train the more I think this doesn't apply to what I do.

Me too. It was sort of a concept I had accepted for that "split second" of my stunted progression. In order to progress I had to get out of that mentality.

EnterTheWhip got me thinking

Oops. Sorry 'bout that.

[AndrewS]

The 'split second of contact' is a very nice way of describing and explaining chi sao to beginners. It's also a very nice way of explaining what goes on when you attack sifu Emin Boztepe.

Other things happen for people in between those skill levels.

I have seen and used chi sao to develop many things under sifu Emin. The quote is a simplification, subject to the liabilities of simplification.

Andrew

[EnterTheWhip]

Contact is a gift. It might be given to you, or you may have to simply take it. Chi sau is how you keep the gift, until enjoyment of it has been exhausted. If you lose it, or it gets stolen from you before enjoyment has been exhausted, then your chi sau needs work.

Upon contact, your chi sau should help you to progressively constrain your subject, while maintaining control. Each technique executed is not to set up your opponent for punches (anyone can do that), but further bind your subject to a higher constraint level, as long as the resistance is there. That level may simply be controlling of the subjects arms. Perhaps, controlling his full body is required. Maybe some limbs need to broken while doing that. Maybe he needs to be taken to the ground with your knee on his neck. Chi sau determines to what extent this needs to be taken, by measuring the threat. I.e. When there is no threat, the enjoyment of the gift has been exhausted.

[Ernie]

etw
first nice description of your interpitation of chi sau.
but one thig troubles me

this description sounds more like from a training perspective '' containing and controlling '' this is more for higher skill development,
this is not from a street fight mentality , were quick termination is the goal ?

also if you have the ability to drop him on the way to '' contact stage '' this would be more effecient would it not ?

i did like the ''gift '' concept . and i know we are from different perspectives , i like raw effecient street skills , and you search to progress in wing chun as a artistic expression.
but i thought i would pick your brain a bit .

another question would it not be better to be able to calmly flow from all and any position or range you might find yourself in , to be able to have this uninterruptable sensitivity , from eye sensitivity to hand and body , and emotional control in all these aspects ?
if so , and chi sau does introduce these seeds . which i know it does , how do you further expand upon these seeds to make them more universal

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ernie
first nice description of your interpitation of chi sau.

It's not an interpretation. That is what chi sau is for.

this description sounds more like from a training perspective '' containing and controlling '' this is more for higher skill development, this is not from a street fight mentality , where quick termination is the goal?

LOL. Oh God...

also if you have the ability to drop him on the way to '' contact stage '' this would be more effecient would it not ?

What is your interpretation of what I meant by drop, given the explanation of chi sau?

i know we are from different perspectives , i like raw effecient street skills , and you search to progress in wing chun as a artistic expression.

I do Wing Chun. What do you do....?

would it not be better to be able to calmly flow from all and any position or range you might find yourself in , to be able to have this uninterruptable sensitivity , from eye sensitivity to hand and body , and emotional control in all these aspects ?

How was that not understood from my post?

how do you further expand upon these seeds to make them more universal

Universal to....?

[Ernie]

etw
I do Wing Chun. What do you do....?
i tried ask you honest questions , but it seems you are still in your little bubble
i do functional wing chun when it suits me , it would seem your are enslaved by it thus lacking the ability to be natural and free.
if your every action must be in some form or justified by your little rule book , then sadly you don't get wing chun at all , and are still living the dream of the man imitating the machine .
imitating the man.
i would have hoped that your vision was beyond the bubble , and tried to have a adult dialogue since you always seem to hide behind others words , '' like what so and so said is correct ''
but never ad your own ,
i honestly felt you were just some sad little beginer looking for a identitiy in wing chun .
but i still tried to give you the benifit of the doubt .
again i mis judged how truly narrow minded you are .
in fact come to think about you fear even useing your real name ,
i should have known by that you were just some clown hiding in the shadows trrying to find a reason or purpose to be more than what he is.
so until you share your name and true wing chun back ground , you and your words are but a ghost , with no substance or experience .
may you never meet a real fighter , or for that an honest person , you would be so lost .
now i can lol.........

[yuanfen]

Ernie sez:

i do functional wing chun when it suits me , it would seem your are enslaved by it thus lacking the ability to be natural and free.
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Ernie:
Wing chun is a very functional system. One cannot merely infer from posts who is "enslaved" by wing chun and who isnt.

Also some folks mistakenly infer from posts who can "fight" or whatever and who cant.

[Ernie]

if ''wing chun'' becomes greater then the individual, then one is not free.
wing chun is simpy a system of training and developing skills , not a way of life , or some spiritual guide towards enlightenment .
or the only way to develop skills .
one won assumes he hasa the only way and all others are wrong one's mind has been enslaved .
there are many paths tp the same goal , if the goal is self improvement .
but then the path becomes your doctrine you are blinded by the path.
also i can tell when one lacks humility and has not learned to be humble , they have issues and have not acually eveoved as a martial artist and a person.
if one assumes to have the right to judge me then by the laws of cause and effect they in turn will be judge .
sorry if i snapped back at your little buddy , but that person seems to be a bit odd and bitter .
if you put ugly out there it will come back to you.

[PaulH]

Ernie, come join the crowd! The show must go on.

"Masquerade! Paper faces on Parade! Masquerade! Hide your face so the world will never find you!~ The Phantom of the Opera "

[Ernie]

your right paul
better to focus on positive enviroments were information is being shared , forgive me for crossing the line and getting caught up in the smoke screen

are you down to train tonight.

[yuanfen]

Ernie:sez..
if ''wing chun'' becomes greater then the individual, then one is not free.
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Some vacuous preaching and proclaiming Ernie.
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Ernie sez:
sorry if i snapped back at your little buddy
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????? not enough wing chun self control yet??