How do you explain the Japanese Influence on Shaolin-Do??

[illusionfist]

My question lies in the fact that some of the forms or patterns are called katas. Sparring is referred to as kumite, staff is called a Bo... What's the meaning behind the name Shaolin-Do? Did The' train under a japanese teacher at one time or train in some japanese martial art?

I also have other questions but i will address them later after we have some posts (insightful hopefully).

Peace [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[qy]

well we all know the story about concealing Shaolin from the Indonesian gov., and holding onto that tradition today to honor the strife that I Chin Ming went through.

Illusion the ONLY ones who can tell you how Sin The put this together is Sin The and his brother. All the students you run into are just gonna chant that story about I Chin Ming. Then say something like, "why does it matter what language we use to describe things?"

I'v gotta ask CSC and SLD folks what does matter? What about 15 years from now, what will you have? Many pieces of a puzzle that dont fit together? A "Master" title? I know, "everlasting life" from all the new moves you continuously see, but never have the time to become part of?

But we will see "true" shaolin when the movie comes out, folks will run to your schools in droves, paying their $$ to learn from you, the holders of all Shaolin material right? The Shaolin at the temple in China is false compared to your undesputed lineage. (thats why they keep supporting and buying tablots there) Just hold out a little longer the movie will be here soon.........and you all will be the envy of the world. Heming will come to Kentucky to learn from you right?


I am in no way picking on those folks currently under these people. I'v been there.


[This message has been edited by qy (edited 07-09-2000).]

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

Her is an intersting sidenote.

Karate was first developed in Okinawa and was originally named "Te". Te, means hand and kara te means empty hand.

Te was taught to the Okinawans by Chinese migrants who came to the island when China officially recognized it in the 1700's.

Te was born of CMA, Karate was born of okinawan te and went to mainland japan and so on. This is true of many asian arts. They for the most part were disemminated from china over a period of centuries and understood according to what the teachers knew and brought with them and then further develoed by the practitioners.

If you are practicing "Shotkan" karate, then many of the foundations of this art come from Chinese martial arts. If you tarce back you will find a lot of Hsing I roots in Shotokan. This goes back to the China/Okinawa/japan connection.

CMA were also brought to and developed in isolation in countries such as korea, indonesia,thailand,burma, cambodia, vietnam and all over southeast asia.

Shaolin Kempo is born of Shaolin Chuan Fa, this Shaolin Do is another iteration of it.
It works like making a copy of a copy in many senses. The more you make a copy from a copy, the more the original image is lost. But ultimately, you still see the original image contained in the copy and are able to grasp what that image is.

Many systems can be considered incomplete. In fact most systems are "incomplete". Many teachers do not have complete knowledge of the system they teach and in fact many shaolin monks were specialists and never had complete knowledge of what was at the temple.

This is the natural way of things and how most martial arts have developed. This does not mean that the arts in question are ineffective, they are and this is also what gives the martial arts their differences and their underlying connectivity to each other.

If you study an art, it is usual that you will at the end of study seek out another to build upon what you have.If you are studying a large amount of knowledge then you may not need to seek out another art because of the timeline involved in understanding what you originally undertook.

Some arts are full and some arts are not so full, either way, the path of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
It is unwise to discount anything without having a personal experience of it. Of course this is not applicable in the area of obvious truths, but I don't think that there are many "obvious" truths in the study of martial art. Much is revealed through the revelatory process in the student.
Otherwise, we would all be masters before we ever entered a school wouldn't we?

everything that captivates your interest deserves a truthful and unbiased look.

Choosing to study a martial art and stepping on that path is more important than the first system chosen. You will grow and learn and will by nature cast off that which is not useful to you and keep that which is, regardless of the system you practice.

Peace

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Kung Lek

[MoQ]

I read qy's post and it sounds as if there IS some personal experience behind it... On the other hand, your post seems lifted from any middle of the road kung fu book.

There is a difference between roots/lineage and BS and some folks' wild claims do in fact bring up some serious questions of authenticity.

[illusionfist]

Any Shaolin-Do students want to take a stab at this?

Peace [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[Chameleon]

Illusionfist -

They've addressed this issue over and over, and as Qy said, they point to Sin The's master in Indonesia who allegedly masked the art in Japanese uniforms and terminology because of anti-Chinese sentiment.

They also address this on their websites.

Here is a link I came across while searching for their answer to this.</a>

Even more interesting about this link is the mention of a Shaolin-Do master from Indonesia, Master Ta Tju, who is said to be a contemporary of Sin The.

[This message has been edited by Chameleon (edited 07-09-2000).]

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

Indeed, Moq, qy speaks from personal experience. But most of what qy has said about the politics and marketing forces of the school of shaolin do martial arts do not speak to the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of what is taught there as the martial art.

I have no experience other than what I have read in magazines or seen on the internet about this school.
Historically speaking it is difficult at best to verify many lineages claiming to be from Shaolin Temple proper or the alleged Fukien Shaolin Temple in the South.

This is because of the massive diversification of the Shaolin martial arts and the geographical isolation of some styles and so on all the way through to various governments and warlords and revolutionary groups and political activists who have changed the face of history so many times.

Much is held in legend only. The's claims simply may be a mix of blurred history and self motivation to prove his cause with a touch of legends tossed in.
But can it be said that the material taught there is found in not only shaolin martial arts (which are many and scattered) but also in other martial arts from other cultures?
And if so, is what is taught there a valid system of self defense? valid health exercises?

I can't say for sure and definitively.

peace

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Kung Lek

[sun lu tang]

Everyone's got their own opinion. What I know is that anyone who is traditional Kung Fu in America, like Lily Lau, Tat Mau Wang, Brendan Lai etc... who teach real traditional Kung Fu, respect the hell out of Sin The and his schools.

Grandmaster The has been in America for over 40 years teaching incessantly, and now in his 60's he still moves around like a young teenager while continuing to teach.

I am saddened that all many can worry about is argueing and trying to prove his credibility false, but those of us who train with him consider it a wonderful opportunity. Compared to anything else I have ever seen or heard, I have never seen any style stand up to the diversity or complexity of what he teaches.

It is pathetic to spend so much time to try to disprove it. If everyone is so content with their training why not just leave it be?

SLT

[David Jamieson]

Everyone's got their own opinion. What I know is that anyone who is traditional Kung Fu in America, like Lily Lau, Tat Mau Wang, Brendan Lai etc... who teach real traditional Kung Fu, respect the hell out of Sin The and his schools.

Grandmaster The has been in America for over 40 years teaching incessantly, and now in his 60's he still moves around like a young teenager while continuing to teach.

I am saddened that all many can worry about is argueing and trying to prove his credibility false, but those of us who train with him consider it a wonderful opportunity. Compared to anything else I have ever seen or heard, I have never seen any style stand up to the diversity or complexity of what he teaches.

It is pathetic to spend so much time to try to disprove it. If everyone is so content with their training why not just leave it be?

SLT

well, seeing as you dragged this 6 year old rutebega out of the ground, I gotta say I pretty much hold to the same general view I expressed above in the archived and internet ancient posts lol.

I don't see how it is any more or less pathetic to drag up a post on the topic that already has 1000 posts.

The effort from both sides, yours as a defender and 'theirs" as detractors is a futile fight. They're saying what you don't want to hear and your saying what they are convinced is not teh way it is.

after all, it's sd that is creating itself and borrowing from other arts that many know are not connected through the known means to the man Thé.

so while the martial arts may have some effect in whatever venue they are expressed in, it is quite clear to most of us who have studied and read and looked at cma for a goodly while, that his historical claims and what not are false. That can't be escaped and you're likely never gonna have any buy in from anyone regarding the historical and lineage-wise credibility of sin thé. Regardless of how loud you say it from teh rooftops or otherwise.

Paying homage to your roots is one thing. Completely co-opting someone elses without having made the efforts to earn it is another thing entirely.

[sun lu tang]

after all, it's sd that is creating itself and borrowing from other arts that many know are not connected through the known means to the man Thé....


Don't rag on me for participating in this thread and voicing my opinion. Especially when you answer me right back. You would stand up for your sifu if he were being badmouthed, if you had one.

Enlighten me if you would as to who Grandmaster The has stolen material from? Considering he was one of the first to teach Kung fu to americans and he was in Kentucky of all places it doesn't seem he has a lot of rivals to "borrow from."

Anyway I was just stating what I know from my experience in his art. Just like you are allowed your opinion, I was voicing mine.

One other thing, does it strike you as funny that no SD people ever bad mouth any other instructor and everyone gangs up on us?

Makes everyone on these stupid chats look like a computer geek ninja wanna be. If you really want the SD issue to go away, let it go.

[MasterKiller]

Enlighten me if you would as to who Grandmaster The has stolen material from? Considering he was one of the first to teach Kung fu to americans and he was in Kentucky of all places it doesn't seem he has a lot of rivals to "borrow from."

And he taught a very limited curriculum at first until he went back to Indonesia for a visit. When he came back, he had 900 Shaolin forms. How did that happen?

[BM2]

Master Hiang names several instructors on his web page.
In an magazine article from the '80s, 320+ forms were from the Southern temple. I don't know if Master Sin has ever said what he knows or if the 900 that has been stated is the total of what the instructors knew together.

[David Jamieson]

after all, it's sd that is creating itself and borrowing from other arts that many know are not connected through the known means to the man Thé....


Don't rag on me for participating in this thread and voicing my opinion. Especially when you answer me right back. You would stand up for your sifu if he were being badmouthed, if you had one.

Enlighten me if you would as to who Grandmaster The has stolen material from? Considering he was one of the first to teach Kung fu to americans and he was in Kentucky of all places it doesn't seem he has a lot of rivals to "borrow from."

Anyway I was just stating what I know from my experience in his art. Just like you are allowed your opinion, I was voicing mine.

One other thing, does it strike you as funny that no SD people ever bad mouth any other instructor and everyone gangs up on us?

Makes everyone on these stupid chats look like a computer geek ninja wanna be. If you really want the SD issue to go away, let it go.

It would appear by your own words that you are already sold on the idea, so what's really pointless is discussing it with you.

Thé is a karate guy who wasn't making money on karate, so he switched to the more glamorous and mysterious kungfu

when you look at things for what they are, it's a lot easier to see them for what they are. SD I suppose is as legit a workout as any. The claims are in conflict with not only one or two.

You don't wonder why so many people are simply incensed at this guy for making teh outrageous claims he does? Not even a little bit? If not, that's fine, but don't expect anyone to really agree with your position who isn't already inside that organization. Otherwsie, whatever floats your boat.

as for stealing, where did he get the Hung Gar? lol (if you can call it that...which you can't really because it's a...well not even a shadow of the real thing)

the 900 forms is also a legit question. not to mention the propensity for plain and outright far flung stories of hairy monks and hidden places and blah blah blah.

enjoy though.

[BM2]

[QUOTE=David Jamieson]
Thé is a karate guy who wasn't making money on karate, so he switched to the more glamorous and mysterious kungfu

You don't wonder why so many people are simply incensed at this guy for making teh outrageous claims he does? Not even a little bit? If not, that's fine, but don't expect anyone to really agree with your position who isn't already inside that organization. Otherwsie, whatever floats your boat.

QUOTE]

You just made ,in my opinion, an outrageous claim. Where do you base your facts that he switched to the more glamorous and mysterious kungfu . Don't expect anyone to really agree with your position if you don't have facts to back it up or be incensed at making the outrageous claim you do?
What type of Karate did he teach and when he did do this and where?

[David Jamieson]

[QUOTE=BM2]

Thé is a karate guy who wasn't making money on karate, so he switched to the more glamorous and mysterious kungfu

You don't wonder why so many people are simply incensed at this guy for making teh outrageous claims he does? Not even a little bit? If not, that's fine, but don't expect anyone to really agree with your position who isn't already inside that organization. Otherwsie, whatever floats your boat.

QUOTE]

You just made ,in my opinion, an outrageous claim. Where do you base your facts that he switched to the more glamorous and mysterious kungfu . Don't expect anyone to really agree with your position if you don't have facts to back it up or be incensed at making the outrageous claim you do?
What type of Karate did he teach and when he did do this and where?

shaolin do aka shaolin do karate which propogates kata and kumite....

um, I believe much of it is self evident. Even if you want to read their own site.