many martial arts are similar

[flaco]

wc is not the only art that uses trapping, sticky hands,etc, so i feel alot of these arts were formed on trial and error, wc is known for cutting out the fluff, and using simple attack and defend that work. x9ing i looks very similar to wc, but with more internal training, and the 12 animals in xing i are very applicable, the animal forms are only like one move repeated over and over, with some variations, and wc trapping looks like xing i 5 element applications, also, as stated on other thread, white crane is similar, and the first set of hung gar, looks al;ot like snt in some sections. i have ssen some real kyokoshinkai that has good trapping, and also destructions maybe superior to kali, also, in mande muda silat, many aspects of the cimunde hand drills look like wc trapping, so where do our arts really come from?
does it matter? what matters most, is realizing that no art has all the answers, and that most arts developed in a certain way because of environmental factors and other factors. in mande muda, we do harimau for ground work, its from sumatra where it rains often, pendekar suwanda said that because it is always raining and muddy, that standing fighting was very hard, so they perfected low to the ground fighting,etc. one old tkd master told me that they developed flying kicks, to knock enemy soldiers off their horses,etc, so we can see why some arts developed in some ways, xing i is one of the only arts proven on the battlefield in combat, time and again, it was used in batrtle, and especially their spear techniques, etc. bjj is proven in todays combat, and has purely developed for todays fighting, as has boxing and other arts. krabi krabong, the father of muey thai had many weapons and skills for reality fighting, etc. so my question is---------why has wc been known for a close quarter art, why was it developed for close quarters, and ,is it true that its a close quarter art, or have many people not been taught the outside range fighting of wc. i have seen many wc schools weak with entry skills and long range fighting.

[Ernie]

hey ,flaco
got the picture of gary ,hawkins and myself thank you.
now to your post ,
there reason there are similarities is simple.
two arms , two legs and two people haveing a confrontation will give birth to certain universal truths.

as my wing chun bretheren seem to think one of the things that seperate them from the rest is tan/bong/fook/ wu and sensitivity drills . but the filipino empty hands have the exact same hands as well as lop pak simaltainous action /center line and there own version of chi sau '' hu bud''
hell the only difference is the body structure since one is weapons based and the other not.

problem is people get to focused on the differences and loss sight of common ground were .
all wing chun control and immobilization concepts are found in dumog ,
all low line kicking in pananjakman
all boxing hands in panantukan
and so on anywere there has been constant struggle were man had to find and evolve empty hand skill and weapons skill there will be common factors.

[yuanfen]

Flaco sez:
so my question is---------why has wc been known for a close quarter art, why was it developed for close quarters, and ,is it true that its a close quarter art, or have many people not been taught the outside range fighting of wc. i have seen many wc schools weak with entry skills and long range fighting.
_____________________________________
"been known" and what is or can be are quite different things.
What one has seen is not necessarily the only unverse.

Wing chun develops the individual for self defense among other things. To a well prepared wing chun person- range is irrelevant-
one adjusts to whatever is there.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
On Ernie's post-
Chimpanzees and humans share many genetic characteristics
yet they are generally regarded as different species.
English has nouns, Muscogee has nouns, Sanskrit has nouns-
but they are generally unintelligible to speakers/users of each language.

Also re"hell the only difference is the body structure since one is weapons based and the other not."

Differences in body structure is saying a lot.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by flaco
why has wc been known for a close quarter art,

because Hong Kong is so crowded.

Wing Chun is a short & long range art. If I trained more legs than hands, I could make it a kicking art.

[Ernie]

yuanfen

have you had exposure to these art's in a way that qualifies you to make such a statement.
that's what i mean people get caught up on the differences and don't see the how much in the scope of combat things are alike.
there is a very thine line betwen the one who wins and the one who gets dropped , in the end it is more the spirit of the man then the style .

[PaulH]

in the end it is more the spirit of the man then the style

Thank you Ernie. You have just touched on the Pauli's doctrine of the Man. Everything can be traced back to the mind, its various expressions, and its handy works."Fighting is from the mind"

Regards,

[yuanfen]

But Paul H- Wolfgang never met Master Man....who understood the mind with his hands.

Ernie- enough acquaintance with other arts to know that the following statement about same hands;

"as my wing chun bretheren seem to think one of the things that seperate them from the rest is tan/bong/fook/ wu and sensitivity drills . but the filipino empty hands have the exact same hands as well "

is not quite true. Ecclecticism requires great discrimination. Filipino arts' body shaping is usually quite different from wing chun.

Re Flaco(in passing- not a criticism)- hari mau originally has Indian influences as do many SE Asian arts...even pendekar is an indian term

[flaco]

ernie, i agree 100 percent, however, although a few of us here, know various arts, there are many post here about who taught who, and where, and what,etc, when all that matters, is if you win, or if your healthy, depending on your goal.
my intent was to get some good answers on why has wing chun people (for the most part) focused on close range fighting?and why has it mostly been called a close range art?

as far as the pendekar statement, we called suwanda (PAH) or some called him guru besar, but the more common name is pendekar, i was not familiar with it's indian origin, so thanks for the input.

as far as wc being close range, because hong kong is crowded, that is the most ridiculous statement i have heard yet, manhattan is crowded also. that comment is one of the things i have heard thru the years, and my friends from honk kong say it is a very false idea.many branches of wc use outside range fighting, for many years, before using close range, THE ENTRY TECHNIQUES are the most important piece. if your timing is not perfected, you will never get close successfully.

[Ernie]

flaco if all you have is rooted structure then you can't have long range skills as that would require the torso to twist and limb extension , more alive footwork and actual physical attributes ,
also wing chun tends to like to counter hit so it really doesn't spend much time on getting from here to ther but rather letting the person open the door first the you blast through.
wing chun likes to be compact.
to increase your range and ability to initiat a attack you must increase your physical ability to cover distance and that would devieate from wing chun theory and structure .

basicaly wing chun is lazy but effecient , why should i waste energy in getting to you when you will come to men and show me how ti hit you.
but if your like me and have energy to spare and natural physical ability drop them in long range , though this is a lot riskier

but in reality all your real balistic weapons are in close quarter [ eye jab,palm,punch,elbow,shoulder,head but,knee,stomp , sweeps and takedowns, chokes , and so on .
so it would seem logical to develop this range and tools.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ernie
flaco if all you have is rooted structure then you can't have long range skills

Not true.

as that would require the torso to twist and limb extension

You can have a solid root while the torso and limbs twist. Chum Kiu trains this. Biu Jee trains this further.

more alive footwork and actual physical attributes

Wing Chun's footwork is very alive.

also wing chun tends to like to counter hit .

Not true. Wing Chun is not a defensive art (unless you approach it as such). All of the techniques in Wing Chun work best as offensive techniques (when done properly).

so it really doesn't spend much time on getting from here to ther

Not true. Perhaps the practitioner doesn't spend much time "getting from here to there". Wing Chun contains drills that train distance and closing the gap.

but rather letting the person open the door first the you blast through

This is more of a personal approach, not a Wing Chun concept.

wing chun likes to be compact.

True, but so do other martial arts.

to increase your range and ability to initiat a attack you must increase your physical ability to cover distance and that would devieate from wing chun theory and structure .

As per my previous comment, Wing Chun does train to cover distance. Physical ability has to do with the practitioner's mentality, not Wing Chun.

basicaly wing chun is lazy but effecient

But more efficient when not approached lazily.

but in reality all your real balistic weapons are in close quarter [ eye jab,palm,punch,elbow,shoulder,head but,knee,stomp , sweeps and takedowns, chokes , and so on .
so it would seem logical to develop this range and tools.

Training your long range will help to refine your short range.

[Ernie]

etw
i agree with everthing you say about wing chun's possibilties , and that the system when looked at with a open mind gives you the seeds for all aspects of combat, since it's based off the human form,
but in my experience most '' not all '' i come across are trapped by it's early stages and can't break free and become natural .
now guys that i have run into that got 10 years plus seem to be alot smoother with it .
it seems that after the get the knife down the start to flow better , footwork ,timing and so on.
but these are just the ones i have seen , but probably over a few hundred between all the schools i have visited and semnars i have gone to.
so in general i see more that lack mobility and attack skills , then the ones that got it down . but that may be different for you

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ernie
etw
i agree with everthing you say about wing chun's possibilties

You keep saying that, but your posts indicate the complete opposite, as per above.

, and that the system when looked at with a open mind

Not such an open mind is required. It's a matter of seeing what is there, in front of you. By the way, I've been criticized by you for not having an open mind, what are you saying now? That you don't have an open mind, and I do?

gives you the seeds for all aspects of combat,

Seeds? It's a tad more than seeds, I would say.

[Ernie]

etw
since you have the super secret key to all that wing chun can is or ever will be .
yet offer no facts, drills, idea's , or original thought besides a wing chun smoke screen ,
it a waste of time to even consider you in any conversation , though i have tried out of curiosity.
but the fact is you give nothing beyond transparent and general statments
you can't even be considered a genuine wing chun practioner .
plus you seem to have a person vendeta against all that does not fit in your view .
this seems to be a person that is hiding behind a shadow of one liners and loaded insults ,
so basicly it's immpossible to have and oppinion on a ghost
best of luck with what ever it is you are doing .
if you should one day step out from the shadows with a name and actual facts and personal experience then perhaps a serious dialogue could take place but for now you remain the court jester

[EnterTheWhip]

As for conversing with me... pick a belief system, Ernie, before you point the finger. You keep flip flopping between saying ridiculous things about Wing Chun and agreeing with me and then going back to ridiculous notions that don't signify anything close to someone who would agree with all that I've posted. "yeah.... i believe that too...." doesn't cut it.

As for my posts... the little I've posted (which is a lot) is far more valuable that your many common misconceptions of Wing Chun.

[Ernie]

well hello there micheal
what have you ever said tha wasn't a quote from some one else or spoken as if your way is the only way ,
were have you ever been honest and shared personal experience ,
instead you kick the same old spew '' well wing chun has the answer '' blah blah blah yet you never give your version '' in detail '' of the answer
you simply recycle information and cut and paste others words .
at least i'm honest about my experiences
don't really care what you think about me cus all i care about are my skills and keeping the functional and improving them.
and i offer what my take is on things right wrong what ever , out of respect for the others that are offering information.
sorry did i use the word respect , something new for you perhaps .
if wing chun was so cut and dry as you seem to think it wouldn't be such a mystery to so many that train it so get off your jesters high horse with your little gay whip and contribute some thing more the sarcastic one liners .
until then court is in session and enter the jester is in full effect .
by the way that was the oppisite of respect just in case you cant tell
later casper