Real Shaolin?

[Gojira]

LOL, nice reply SIFU Abel. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
But back to the point, Heming you seem to preach like a monk, yet you claim not to be one.
Are you a practicing Buddhist or is that out of convinence?
Not a flame but a legit question.
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

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If you have nothing to do, don't do it here!

[MoQ]

How did you know Elvis was my cousin?

You know I was sayin that the Catholic/Buddhism comparison was baloney-filled hypocracy...

All of you are clearly unqualified to pass judgement on Heming on any level. "He's not at Shaolin and Shaolin isn't Shaolin anyway and it's not kung fu and he's not even Chinese and his teachers aren't monks and they aren't even Buddhist and..."

Y'all are a bunch of KOOKS...

[TongLongPai]

MoQ,

I'm with you on this one man! Do some of you people have anything else better to do other than trying to proove someone wrong or write harsh thing about people? (You know who you are out of guilt...especially if you said: "Who ME?")
If MoQ is freinds with Heming, that is a good thing! Why are you trying to call him a Lap dog if he's taking up for his friend?
Ask your self this:
Try taking all the mean and harsh things that you wrote to Heming and the others and put yourself in their shoes, would you like to be attacked by someone and no one to back you up to Boot?
Come on you guys...surely you can think and see the error in your ways. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] If someone is a fake "anything", then they will eventually be un-masked in the long run. Until then think humility before saying something. Cant we all just get along???

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Omitoufo,
TLP

[SHAOLINWOODENMAN]

I HAVE BEEN OUT FOR A WHILE BUT I AM BACK FOR A BRIEF MOMENT TO REPLY TO THIS STUFF.
BEING AN OLD MAN NOW AND HAVING BEEN TO THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE IN CHINA I WOULD LIKE TO OFFER MY VIEWS ON THIS SUBJECT. WHEN I WAS THERE(ABOUT 5YEARS AGO) I SAW MANY THINGS THERE. IT DIDNOT HAVE THE FEEL OF WHAT I FELT THAT THE TEMPLE WAS. IN MY TRAVELS TO BUDDHIST TEMPLES IN THAILAND AND SOUTHEAST ASIA I FOUND THAT BUDDHISM WAS THE CORE STUDY
THERE,,ALSO THERE WERE NOT ALOT OF TOURISTS THERE TO INVADE THE HARMONY, THERE WAS NO FIGHTING DONE AS BUDDHISM STRICTLY FORBIDS VIOLENT ACTIONS AGAINST ANOTHER. NOW AT THE SHOALIN TEMPLE I SAW NOTHING THAT WOULD LEAD ME TO BELIEVE THAT IT HAD BEEN RESSURRECTED AS A FULLY WORKING BUDDHIST CHURCH. BELEIVE ME YOUNG'ENS WHEN I TELL YOU I KNOW MY STUFF ON THE SUBJECT. I ALSO FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT THE MONKS ONLY DID FIGHTING AND KUNG-FU, THERE WAS A GREAT EMPHASIS ON EDUCATION IN THE BUDDHIST DOCTRINES. ALL OF THAT CHANGED WHEN MAO'S REGIME CAME INTO POWER AND COMMUNISM OUTLAWED THOSE PRACTICES.
MONKS WERE KILLED OR RUN OFF. I DO NOT WISH TO OFFEND BY MY OPPINIONS HERE, I AM RETIRED MILITARY AND SPENT MY RETIREMENT TRAVELLING ASIA. TO THE PEOPLE HERE THAT FEEL THAT THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE IS A "THEME PARK" SO TO SPEAK,
I WOULD SAY THAT MAYBE THE PEOPLE THERE DO WHAT THEY CAN TO KEEP THINGS AS AUTHENTIC AS THEY CAN WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT THERE BREATHING DOWN THIER NECKS. I DOUBT THAT THE MARTIAL ARTS PRACTICED THERE ARE FAKE AND BEAR NO VALIDITY. BUT FOR THOSE WHO FEEL THAT THE TEMPLE IS THE REAL THING AND HAS BEEN FULLY RESSURRECTED I WOULD CAUTION YOU NOT TO GET SO WRAPPED UP IN THE FANTASY, REMEMBER WHAT MARTIAL ARTS/CHAN/ZEN TEACHES YOU ABOUT SHEDDING THE EXTERIOR AND LOOKING WITHIN. THAT SIMPLY MEANS THAT THE OUTWARD APPEARANCE OF ANYTHING DOES NOT MATTER BUT THE CONTENT OF WHAT LIES BENEATH THE EXTERIOR
IS WHAT REALLY COUNTS. BEING A PATRIOT OF MY COUNTRY AND A FIRM OPPOSER OF COMMUNISM,NOT BECAUSE I FEEL THAT COMMUNISM IS OUR ENEMY, BUT RATHER THE SHEDDING OF SPIRITUALITY AND RELIGION IS WHY I FEEL THAT THE SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK IN THE LONG RUN. OOPS I AM GETTING TOO POLITICAL HERE, IWILL CONCLUDE BY STATING THAT WHAT EVER THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE IS NOW IT SHOULD BE RESPECTED AS THE BIRTHPLACE OF MOST CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS. I DO NOT WORSHIP THE TEMPLE OR GIVE PRAISE TO ANYONE THERE,,,,,I WORSHIP THE POWER BEHIND IT,AND THE LEGACY IT HAS CREATED FOR THE WORLD. LET ME SAY ONE MORE THING,,,THE SOURCE OF ALL KNOWLEDGE BE IT MA'S OR SHAOLIN OR EVEN GOD, BUDDHA,ETC. LIES WITHIN THE SELF.

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NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF THE BELT!

[MoQ]

Thankyou Sir! Your lucid and insightful comments are very welcome and appreciated.

you may wanna lose the capslock though...

[This message has been edited by MoQ (edited 07-20-2000).]

[Taijimantis]

Why all the Hate?

Much of China is not as it was years ago. But is it any more laughable than the ***** Redneck who runs the United States with his sexual misadventures?
Or the corrupt remains of the former Soviet Union?
The Shaolin Temple may be a tourist site, or a money making scheme, but its history is colorful and wonderful. I have seen the monks do wonderous things, and as a Buddhist I have to respect those there that still wish to seek the eightfold path.

Why are we so judgemental?

What difference does it really make?

We all know much of what goes on in this world is illusion, so why not leave it at that? It makes our blood pressure much lower!

Illusions keep the peace.

Besides, in 100 years who will be around to care? none of us. ENJOY!

[molum_jr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MoQ:
All of you are clearly unqualified to pass judgement on Heming on any level. "He's not at Shaolin and Shaolin isn't Shaolin anyway and it's not kung fu and he's not even Chinese and his teachers aren't monks and they aren't even Buddhist and..."

Y'all are a bunch of KOOKS...[/quote]

It has BEEN rather entertaining reading all these postings from forum to forum about Hemming and Shaolin. What I see is a form of marketing/capitalism employed by him. Is it from Hong Kong or the United Kingdom? Whatever moral/ethics we have about real Shaolin maybe irrelevant to him - He may not understand nor recognize these concepts. Does he know anything about western democracy and capitalism? How much education does he have and where was he educated. Judging by how he has been posting replies, it certainly is not from Beijing or Shanghai University.

I equate the guy to all these new "dot commers" who are riding the band wagon and making, investing in the Shaolin craze and cashing out in the future. Think about, like dot commers, he claims an altruistic value and noble effort (in this case Shaolin!); but I think he won't refuse to take the money when the opportunity presents itself.

Afterall, how much of capitalistic ethics does the Chinese market know except to MAKE $$$? Hemmins is competing w/literally thousands of like-minded "I want a piece of the action too!" Shaolin just happens to be it, and when all these visiting sifu's from the US arrive... He use them, take pictures, and ride on their coat tails also. A leech? We have them here in the USA also...


And the biggie...I don't know any Chinese person who was born in China that calls their mother, "mum!" Sissy boy?

[This message has been edited by molum_jr (edited 07-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by molum_jr (edited 07-21-2000).]

[SHAOLINWOODENMAN]

It seems to me that the issue here is the money and the apparent capitalistic way that the shaolin temple is utilizing to stay active. many peoples anger towards Heming seems to stem from just that. How can an organization still remain pure in itself and yet be so money hungry? i think that we miss the point of this ongoing debate. the way i answer the above question is this:
SURVIVAL. We do what we can to survive in this ever growing industry of technology and computers. things such as shaolin and the natural ways are fading. they are fading because the followers of those ways refuse to EVOLVE into this century. I guess it is hard for a purist to make the crossover to the 21st century mindset and still remain true to his/her natural holistic frame of mind. Polluting the temple,so to speak. well all i can say is more power to the Temple for thier efforts to keep things alive and going despite what they have to conform to in order to survive. It is like other martial arts in this country that do the same.
they either modernize themselves and wash out the non-essentials(like bruce lee,jeet kune do) or they take on a whole different look and blend with other styles to better themselves(such as shaolin do)[which i have been reading the posts on in relation to this topic.) it all goes back to my earlier post regarding the outward appearance of things. my teacher is alot younger than i am and he looks like a little punk kid but being the man that i am i saw past that and
he turned out to be a genuine teacher for me.
and i for him as well. i hope that some day a democracy can return to China and the buddhist churches can safely resume their practices,as well as the shaolin temple. i am sure that they over there wish for it secretly,and so do i. so i take the temple now for what it is. that is all i have to say about the subject.

[Chameleon]

Well said, Woodenman.

I wish some of these brave souls who accuse Heming of being fake, of not being Chinese, etc., would just call up the number he has provided. And then post their own number so that we can compare their authenticity to his.

This has all gotten silly. Heming has provided more personal information than anyone else on this board, and he's quoted in the article that started this thread.

Yes, he is promoting his school. Yes, this could be perceived as capitalistic....So what?

He has explained the desire for money, the need for money is explained in the article...Almost all of us study in schools that have been marketed effectively enough to raise money for basic things like toilets.

Promoting a martial arts school (one that doesn't have modern toilets yet) is hardly a way to get rich, and is clearly not the most effective money making scheme for an English speaking person in China.

I don't know whether Heming's art is the same authentic Shaolin that existed 100 years ago, or whether is modern wushu as modified by the government...I'll give him the benefit of doubt on this, since I'll never be able to know this for certain.

But all this crud about him not being Chinese should at leaste be backed up by someone who has called Heming, and is willing to provide their own phone number. And it should at leaste be accompanied by a plausible explaination of why he would want to pretend to be Chinese in the first place.

The attacks on him, IMO, have really started losing any logical foundation. (i.e. determining whether someone is Chinese based on which English words they use.) I tend to follow the Occam's Razor approach.

And it suggests to me that Heming is exactly who he says he is, exactly the guy whose picture is on his website, and exactly the guy quoted in the article...And that he is here for the exact reason he says he is here - to help his master by promoting his school...I can't find any rational motivation for him to lie about any of this.

Sure, Shaolin has become commercial...As Woodenman point out, this is a requirement for survival...But leave it at that, folks...There is no grand conspiracy here.

[SifuAbel]

Let me clear this up for you,

The issues of his being chinese or not and whether monks should make money or not are byproducts sprouted from one initial argument. Heming claims that he is doing the one and only true Northern Shaolin kung fu and that all the rest of us are in fake land. And we argue back that whats at shaolin now is Governmental whitewash. This is the only real argument. The opinion that he is a delusional, sniveling, granola crunching, misfit comes from our perceptions. We don't really know this. As far as I'm concerned, he just sounds like the kid in school who would desperately do anything to be seen with the cool kids.

[Chameleon]

SifuAbel:

Let me clear up my thoughts for you...Nothing I said in my last post was directed at your comments.

There is a rather vocal group that seems to have some need to challenge "fake" Shaolin people, and Heming has been a part of this...But in fairness to Heming, he pulled away from this, and has not called everyone but him fakes.

Before I'm going to consider anything fake, I'd at leaste have to observe it. And even then, I am by no means an authority, and completely aware that my "authentic" truth cannot really be proven better than anyone else's.

I'm amazed at the number of people who seem to have some need to challenge the authenticity of others, particularly when they haven't even observed them in action. And I'm amazed for what people accept as evidence to form their opinions.

Cosmetic things like the word, "mum" and words like "kata" and "gi" don't come anywhere near my requirements for serious evidence.

IMO, if someone wants to call Heming a fake, call him up, find out who he really is, and prove it convincingly.

And IMO, if someone wants to prove a style is fake, show how substantial pieces of content (i.e. tiger-crane form) differ from what you consider the "authentic" form, and be prepared to defend both your understanding of the "authentic" version, and your characterization of the version from the alleged "fake" style.

In conclusion, I'm sick of people calling eachother fakes, and everything relating to Shaolin ultimately coming down to these petty arguments about who is "authentic".

It is particularly disturbing to me because it makes "alleged" Shaolin practicioners look like a bunch of immature kids with inadequacy problems.

[ffab@cyberkwoon.]

Again I will say here what I said in other threads about Heming.
I spent several days with him in Shaolin, where I interviewed his masters and some other "shaolin monks" (as real as it gets).
He is a young man, born in Zhejiang and probably raised in Hongkong. He told me that his dream was to come in Shaolin and study there, and he is doing that for almost 2 years now. His family is rich enough to allow him to be there and if he was really craving for money, be sure that shaolin is NOT the place to be.
Only ppl who never put a feet in Shaolin can imagine that it is an el dorado for local population.
It is true that some "monks" demonstrating or teaching abroad have a comparatively higher income than usual but this is very random. Let's remember that $1000 can seem a lot but put that once a year and that is finally very little money.
Finally here is a link to a picture of Heming, me, Rich (webmaster of the excellent www.russbo.com) and one of his friend.
Those who've been there will recognize the place. http://www.spheral.com/alma/ad/shaolin02.jpg
Now is someone still doubting about the origin of Heming ?

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Visit ALMA the leading CMA website : http://www.spheral.com/alma

[This message has been edited by ffab (edited 07-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by ffab (edited 07-22-2000).]

[Heming]

Dear friends,

all the information of the Shaolin kungfu seminar in Hong Kong(2nd July, 2000) can be found at the English version page of Hong Kong University of Sci. & Tech. Martial Arts Soceity. Many photos of Master Shi Heng Jun and Heming are there. and more will be loaded later.

<http://home.ust.hk/~su_shao/>

People start to love Shaolin kungfu now, hehehehehehe...

Heming, Shaolin Temple

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Heming
Shaolin Secular Disciple's Union,
Shaolin Temple, Mt.Song, Henan 452491, P.R.China
Tel: +86(371)2749172
Fax: +1(212)98143
ICQ#: 17145752
Email: heming@shaolintemple.zzn.com
http://www.topcities.com/Arts/heming/index.htm
http://shaolintemple.yeah.net

[Heming]

the website of Hong Kong University Martial Arts Society is:
http://home.ust.hk/~su_shao/

Heming