Relations

[norther practitioner]

What are the relations between Mei Hua Chuan from Shaolin, and the hua chuan as a system. I'm just interested because looking at a lot of forms at shaolin, you see there outside influences, however, they are definitely shaolin. The whole martial exchange concepts etc. play into this obviously, but is there anything saying what came in, what came out, is it too hazy, etc. Tantui is an obvious example of something coming in from the Muslims, how about the hong chuans (xiao and da) compared to hong chuan?

Any thoughts?

[norther practitioner]

Anyone?

lol

[NorthernShaolin]

Still thinking about your question. Not sure because of the lack of Chinese characters for Hua and Hong.

Hua as in Flower, right?

From the top of my head, Mei Hua chuan is a style that patterns its footwork in a shape of a flower. And doesn't this style use elevated poles to practice on?

As for Hua Chuan, this is an old northern style that was introduced into the Shaolin temple. They do not share anything in common except that at some point in time both were taught at the Shaolin in thier history.

As for hong chuan (Xiao and Dia) this is again an old northern style and translates to mean RED. While the other hong chuan, can I assume you are refering to a family name Hong? If so then they are not related. One is northern while the other is southern.

[norther practitioner]

Well, the questions were a written a bit trapping I guess. Hua chuan that I was reffering to was correct... flower boxing. I know very little of its history, except that it has some connection with Shaolin.

Pretty much the same situation for Hong chuan (the northern one). These were introduced into Shaolin, but at what capacity, when, what happend to them after this, are the versions we see today what came out, what went in, or some combination.

[NorthernShaolin]

Well let me start with the older styles. Both Hong and Hua originated and developed in the Yellow River Valley. Hua is also known as Flower style and is characterized by its tactics of confusing its opponents with rapid altercations. The stances are shorter than Wah and Ch'a styles but like both of these styles, its participants must be flexible and supple. It is known as a close fighting style and contains at one time 120 hand sets. Two of the most famous fighters were Kan Feng Chih (Ching dynasty) (which Gene Ching wrote an article about him) and Hu Wei Chuan (Ching Dynasty), who was the last known person to learn the style in the shaolin temple. Only five sets are documented out of the original 120 sets. Originally this style contained 72 grapping techniques, 36 leg techniques, 24 stances, and 88 falling tricks. A veteran boxer of tis style was known to be able to throw his opponent to the ground by just touching him.

Hong style is also known as Red style and give the appearance of being hard and explosive in power than the other northern styles like Ch'a, Hua and Wah, and it still contains many jumping and dodging techniques of many Northern styles. The sets you named are not the original sets but are of a recent development. The original sets of Hong were called Chinese Oriole, 24 shape fist, 6 country shape, short fist, string fist and form fist. But these sets are lost.

[norther practitioner]

Thanks NS.... That was exactly what I was looking for.

[GeneChing]

ns- It was great to finally meet you face-to-face at the Lion Dancing tournament last weekend. I wish we had more time and the leisure to do an exchange. I'd love too see your BSL someday.

np- Here's that Gan Fengchi article (or Kan Feng Chih if you rather) that NS referred too (thanks for the plug!) After reading it, you'll see more of the connection between Hua and BSL.

[norther practitioner]

After reading it, you'll see more of the connection between Hua and BSL.

Cool, thanks, don't know how I missed that one.....

[norther practitioner]

A quick follow up question....

What if any came from the muslim's, other than tantui of course.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by NorthernShaolin
Only five sets are documented out of the original 120 sets.

Do you know what the names of these sets are? Do you know anyone who currently practices them? Thanks.

[MasterKiller]

24 Posture Fist
36 Posture Fist
Stretching Fist
Running Tiger Fist
Ox Heart Spade

[norther practitioner]

Thanks MK!

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
24 Posture Fist
36 Posture Fist
Stretching Fist
Running Tiger Fist
Ox Heart Spade

Yes, thanks.

Is the "Ox Heart Spade" a weapon form? Do you know these forms MK?

[NorthernShaolin]

norther practitioner,

Here is what I found on Mei Hua as it is what I originally thought.

Mei Hua was secretly taught from father to son since the Han Dynasty to the end of the Ming Dynasty. It was Zhang San Sheng who was the first person to teach it publicly and since then the style has spread to Hebei, Shangtung and Honan provences. It was these practitioners of this style who were the main force behind the Boxer Rebellion (1898 -1901).

Mei Hua means Plum Blossom and is offen refered to Plum Blossom Stakes as the origin of the style had its practitioners practice over 100 stakes driven into the ground. Today the style is practiced on the ground but the same footwork is used as if practing on the stakes.

[Brad]

Is the "Ox Heart Spade" a weapon form?

Yes. You can see a pic of it here: http://www.plumpub.com/images/VCD/vcd191.jpg

VCD's on those forms are available here: http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_hua.htm

I'm going to buy a couple of them to see what they look like