Lineage and 'sparring verses chi sau!!'

[old jong]

I have seen lots of poor psychiatric patients who love to automutilate in my work. Many of them have "Boxer face" as a result of their self-punching or hitting the walls with their faces. Are these guys "tough"?...
It seems that they are after some endorphines discharge that follows pain naturaly.
There must be some relation to the boxers who come to enjoy being hitted.

[yuanfen]

rub the buddha sez:

joy: <thump><thump><ow>


((The Buddha smiles)))

[Ernie]

yuanfen
o.k. no more beating the dead horse [[ or is it horse stance]]
either way i hate both of them
how do you know your training works under pressure that is not from a wing chun way of attack[[ cuz that's all you get in class]]
if you have a better proven method , fill me in , i'll try anything just to see if there are results .
i could care less about the angle of tan's and wieght distribution and how much you bend your knees and who great a form looks ,
all i care about is two dudes square up one walks away the other gets carried out period .
all that other stuff is creme filling , made to fill the void of technitions that don't test that's why there are so many un proven perceptions .
no chest thumping , and i don't promote sparring to the point of stupidity '' alot of people seem to think in extremes like just because you spar you go all out and end up a veg. ]]
so how do you progessivly test your skills and make them adaptable under pressure .
be specific

[whippinghand1]

Originally posted by Ernie
i could care less about the angle of tan's and wieght distribution and how much you bend your knees and who great a form looks

So what you're saying is that, in order to be successful in a "fight" you need muscle power.

[Ernie]

whipping boy
So what you're saying is that, in order to be successful in a "fight" you need muscle power.
maybe you do but i don't
by the way a ghost shouldn't speak just keep rattleing your chain

[yuanfen]

yuanfen
o.k. no more beating the dead horse [[ or is it horse stance]]
either way i hate both of them

((Which horse stance... and why do I need to know what you hate?))


how do you know your training works under pressure that is not from a wing chun way of attack[[ cuz that's all you get in class]]


((You seem to think you know what goes on in class))


if you have a better proven method , fill me in , i'll try anything just to see if there are results .

((Sticking with good wing chun development is a proven method))


i could care less about the angle of tan's and wieght distribution and how much you bend your knees and who great a form looks ,

((You seem to have a superficial interest in wing chun))


all i care about is two dudes square up one walks away the other gets carried out period .

((Whats involved? Empty hand, weapons... what is the lay of the land-is it dry? raining? Circumstances can vary... reality varies))

all that other stuff is creme filling , made to fill the void of technitions that don't test that's why there are so many un proven perceptions .

((What and whose unproven perceptions are you talking about??))


no chest thumping , and i don't promote sparring to the point of stupidity '' alot of people seem to think in extremes like just because you spar you go all out and end up a veg. ]]

(Sensible point))


so how do you progessivly test your skills and make them adaptable under pressure .
be specific

((be specific... ? try a little civility in your posts first. Makes for a good conversation)))

[Ernie]

yuanfen
i am civil to those that are civil to me

((Which horse stance... and why do I need to know what you hate?))
you don't i was jokeing
((You seem to think you know what goes on in class))
no greater asssumption then you have about others sparring or of what i seem to be thinking ,
i can only go off what i read and from what i read most seem to follow the same old route forms,chi sau,more forms , more chi sau ,more forms more chi sau and so on. and the greatist thing is when i here the ''((Sticking with good wing chun development is a proven method))
yet no one seems capable to break it down the just give general statements like some magic pill, sorry most wing chun people that i have come across suck , as the seem to stick to there traditional development . but the ones that step out of the safty net and test , those have been really good , thus i base much on this observation, and when i say good i mean very efficient in any arena and very adaptable , there wing chun is more alive and natural not just dead poses or trying to run people down with a blast or a posture . but this is the few hundered i have seen maybe there is another group under a rock some were with the magic pill .
((You seem to have a superficial interest in wing chun))
just the oppisite i don't get caught up in the superficial aspects of wing chun that beginers dable over . stance structure posstion feel angle and power are all very basic and personal no great mystery , i am only interest in application and adaptabilty in a live enviroment, or training methods that promote and test those skills
so i ask you to break down some of the methods you seem to feel are benificial to advance these skills and how you test them with out a open enviroment against a agressive opponent ,
not being sarcastic really curious ?
we allready now we have different approaches but i'm allways down to learn something new or different . so enlighten me

((Whats involved? Empty hand, weapons... what is the lay of the land-is it dry? raining? Circumstances can vary... reality varies))
exactly my point non of these issues are honestly refined and adressed in traditional chi sau, so how do you test and develop your adaptability ,
i train out side , in the park on the street with and with out weapons , multiple attackers ,sticks knives , rocks , broken bottles ,hell even a garden hose anything we can pick up and flow with , all this i do outside of class just to keep things real and honest , true you can't chose your street fight but you can become familier to adapting to strange situations
no if there is a nice clean easy way in chi sau to develop these skills by all means please share.

((What and whose unproven perceptions are you talking about??))
everything is unproven until you prove it for yourself until then you living off another persons word

don't mean to sound so harsh i just don't buy into any hype things have to be proven and tested not just theoretical or hand me down '' my sifu says crap''
i don't doubt that you have sparred a litttle but i'm sure we have different idea's on what sparring is it is as mutli layered as chi sau , if you are clever and have good people to work off, but your not into it fine how do you suplement it , and how do you know you can adapt to lines of attack that are not in chi sau , or being thrown by another guy that has worked just as hard at his type of fighting not some wing chun guy pretending to be a boxer , kicker and so on .
and if your not sure then fine no one is supposed to have all the answers but you answer in such a difinitive way ''((Sticking with good wing chun development is a proven method))
like that's the end all but yet i don't hear you explain why it's so '' perfect ''
blanket statements don't fly ,
it's real easy to hide behind the skirt of wing chun just recite the sayings and repeat what sifu says , i used to be that way to in the begining it made everything so nice and neat but then i started testing it and was like ''wow'' that's a real jab or ''d amn'' that's a real thai kick , and then i started to realize thow i knew the motions and the theory and i was able to control and manipulate people in chi sau and everyone wopuld how good i was , well it was different in the real world , but under that pressure i learned and am still learning how to adapt and become natural so i express the wing chun vs. it trapping me by it's viual imagery.
whats your secret

[yuanfen]

yuanfen
i am civil to those that are civil to me

((Why not be civil from the start?))

yet no one seems capable to break it down the just give general statements like some magic pill, sorry most wing chun people that i have come across suck , as the seem to stick to there traditional development .


((On the contrary- most dont do very "traditional" things---there are chains of people who have been exposed very little to good wing chun and pass on undigested made up things. The popularity of wing chun is a real minus.I agree that most dont do it well))

i am only interest in application and adaptabilty in a live enviroment, or training methods that promote and test those skills

((Deep understanding of principles and application and testing are all important.))


so i ask you to break down some of the methods

(These things are best shown in person ))


everything is unproven until you prove it for yourself until then you living off another persons word

don't mean to sound so harsh i just don't buy into any hype things have to be proven and tested not just theoretical or hand me down '' my sifu says crap''

((I dont hype, I dont sell and I dont hide behind quoting sifu))


i don't doubt that you have sparred a litttle

\( alittle?- now thats patronising))

))but i'm sure we have different idea's on what sparring is it is as mutli layered as chi sau , if you are clever and have good people to work off, but your not into it fine how do you suplement it ,

((Clever?))

and how do you know you can adapt to lines of attack that are not in chi sau ,

((therein lies the rub... from my perspective, practice and experience- the full chi sao curriculum covers more lines of attack
than other known systems and sparring. If there was one that covers lines better than wing cun- I would be lining up for lessons))

or being thrown by another guy that has worked just as hard at his type of fighting not some wing chun guy pretending to be a boxer , kicker and so on .

((Sure- a combination of exposure to good wing chun and the practitioners own qualities, character and experience and confidence in their art have to be meshed in order to deal with competent people in other styles.))


'blanket statements don't fly ,

((Net communications do have their limitations.))

it's real easy to hide behind the skirt of wing chun just recite the sayings and repeat what sifu says ,


((Sorry- I dont do that))

i used to be that way to in the begining it made everything so nice and neat but then i started testing it and was like ''wow'' that's a real jab or ''d amn'' that's a real thai kick ,

((I am glad that you have evolved.Yes there are folks who have led a sheltered life. But-I do know whata good jab is and whata good kick is- and what lines they are coming in on- because of (there's the word) the whole variety of chi sao experience))


whats your secret

(( Fairly good Understanding of wing chun principles and dynamics plus practice plus experience. No magic wand))

[Ernie]

yuanfen
((therein lies the rub... from my perspective, practice and experience- the full chi sao curriculum covers more lines of attack
now here is a starting point ,
does your chi sau cover high low high ?
were in a person can give pressure on the high line then instantly drop th the low with a single or double leg tackle just blasting through your stance with full athletic blitz ,
or 2 guys coming in simaltainiously on different lines ,
or weapons ?
have to make this short i'm on my way out ,
and if it does then explain and if it doesn't then why not ?
i do believe wing chun offers the answers but i don't believe most will ask themselves the hard questions to find those answers ,
these are two off the top of my head

[yuanfen]

yuanfen

does your chi sau cover high low high ?

((The chi sau skills do indeed))


were in a person can give pressure on the high line then instantly drop th the low with a single or double leg tackle just blasting through your stance with full athletic blitz ,

((a good chance that the guy will fall down or get hurt. Wing chun is not primarily depenednt on athleticism. Good wing chun should surprise someomne depending primarily on athletic skills))

or 2 guys coming in simaltainiously on different lines ,

((Enough chi sao and you sense the differnces in timing between the two guys...simultaneity is an artificial construct often))


or weapons ?

((Bazooka, a car? Uzi?wing chun helps sharpen your alertness and wits... and if your number is up- you can lose))


have to make this short i'm on my way out ,
and if it does then explain and if it doesn't then why not ?
i do believe wing chun offers the answers but i don't believe most will ask themselves the hard questions to find those answers ,
these are two off the top of my head

((Sure- good wing chun folks are not or should not be smug about their wing chun))

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
or 2 guys coming in simaltainiously on different lines ,
or weapons ?

This kind of argument is presented a lot. I am always curious, how many of lesser size and skill even with empty hands can one assuredly handle? How many of greater size and skill? Can a person best even just one person with same size and skill as their own? If one identical person cannot be handled, what assurance is there of handling many? How many with sticks, knives, broken bottles and guns? What kind of training could possibly make such guarantees as these, and how far will is one willing to go in an attempt to realize it? Rhetorical questions of course, and only for purposes of contemplative discussion.

I don't believe that hyper emphasis on realism is entirely as pragmatic as its made out to be, save exceptional cases such as war where the risks of tremendous loss are almost a certainty. Sometimes, if examined closely enough, perspectives may be more due to what one wants, enjoys, or fears for more personal reasons rather than reflecting the most prudent investment for managing external risks.

Let's face it, some people train because they like to fight. Some people don't like to fight but train because they don't enjoy being willing victims either. And there is an amalgam of other reasons in between extremes.

IMHE, prevention is generally the best investment, if personal protection is the real issue. Training at the shooting range can be a good supplementary investment, if protection is the primary concern. For personal protection purposes, the stuff in between is icing on the cake, IMHO, though fortuitously and often enough offers sufficient other benefits to make the overall effort and investment worthwhile.

In no way do I view martial arts training as my primary strategy or means of self protection, whether against one or many.

I can only beg forgiveness for my particular perspective on realism. Even a century ago the boxers took a lesson in realism. I am reasonably certain that my opinions and conclusions are not altogether novel.

Just thinking out loud as usual.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[PaulH]

Kathy,

Prevention is always better than Ernie's adventurous meddlings. But just for the sake of comtemplative musings, allow me to be your devil's advocate for a brief moment...

What exactly is realism? According to the devil's dictionary, it is "the art of depicting nature as it is seen by toads. The charm suffusing a landscape painted by a mole or a story written by a measuring-worm" There are always plenty of noisy and rational disagreements among toads on who is more accurate...

Ernie, on the other hand, is one of those restless trouble makers who dares to seek "truth" in conflicts. He delights in contradictions which drive "a person or a community from the first awareness of negation to a resetting on a new truth. Few people have been comfortable living without some mode of establishing what is true, right, better or more beautiful. Yet progress can come by letting go of one truth to explore another. This exploration is the heart of the dialectic. - Will Mc Whinney"

I find only a few people so far understand Ernie and his messages. Just my toady sense to you on the variety of realism.

Regards,

[Ernie]

yuanfen

((Enough chi sao and you sense the differnces in timing between the two guys...simultaneity is an artificial construct often))
here is a common misconception, were you assume you will be able to do this , but the reality is you will lack the adjustability especially when there is multiple targets and elevation changes '' the center disappears '' and for that split second while the person is trying to adjust to a line of attack and intesity of attack he has never felt or seen before he or she is vulnerable .
the solution spend time dialing in your skills to these types of attacks from people who can really give them to you especially athletic people that have good body sensitivity like football players or collage wrestlers , to asume you will allways have the upper hand or shock them with your basic wing chun skills is a large assumption , like the fighter saying that won't ever happen to me syndrone.
the problem is most people don't like to lose and by placeing your self in unfamilier and uncomfortable situations you will lose and fall and have to learn to recover your position. then and only then can you expand your sensitivity and emotional stability to become adaptable beyond the '' norm''
but it takes accepting the dirty little possibility that you can and will get smoked , you have to leave your ego at the door and just flow with what ever comes your way ,
and if your chi sau skills are all there cracked up to be then you should look forward to such training situations since you allready have the answer and of course you will never falter right.
you see i love to explore the inherent weakness in wing chun '' the human condition'' and i see it's strength as it's weakness we tend to get a little arrogant and often this creates blinders .
wy waste time talking about what we know is good an works '' hell it works '' look into the stuff people have a hard time with across the board ,
closing the gap, good boxers , ground fighters , multiple attackes and weapons ,
by investigating the these elements and alowwing our selves to fail and search for solutions in out selves and the art we inturn give back to the art by subjecting our bodies and minds to the testing ground , is this not how the art was created and progressed by look at what was out there and searching for better solutions .
that's why i get bummed out on people that don't take those extra steps and push the training , it's like there vutures living of the dead carcas of those that bleed before them taking credit and enjoying this great art but giving nothing back.
and then they get all huffy with those that are atleast trying to test and expand like it was a sin '' very odd thinking in my book''
look i know many of us are weekend warriors and have families and jobs and are generally happy with the status quo,
but if your talking about combat anything and everything is viable , you have to accpt that you can rip some ones eye out or stomp there head into the ground because this is what they are trying to do to you ,
once you accept this and are honest with yourself then your training horizens will expand .

((Sure- good wing chun folks are not or should not be smug about their wing chun))
then why are so many lacking in detail when the answer question , about actual fight training , they will talk all day about the safe stuff ,
like what year did yip man first start losing his hair and how was he standing when it happened , or did he pee standing up and which hand did he use , they will get all detailed about that . but ask them how they specificly train there skills balance speed power adaptability sensitivity , and were there best results come from , suddenly they dumm up and roll out the blanket statments .
like the whole well chi sau thing . to general break it down share a little , it's like people don't want to put there personal experiences out ther cus they might get blasted so what .
it's your experience no one can take that from you . and you might actually help someone

yuanfen
thank's for hanging in there and putting up with me through these q & a

kathy
happy 4th
i sum it up by working a small percentage of your training in the stress over load enviroment [ multiple ,weapons ,terrian changes , and so on]
you are not so much making this your primary objective and you are supposed to lose ,
it helps you by allowing yout to experience these situations and inturn calm your mind and learn to relax and flow even in the face of '' simulated death''
once you can become calm and function in a overwhelming situation you are extremely calm when facing just one person , you have been through worse manny times , faceing one person becomes a lot less threatning from a mental aspect after you have spent time on the end of two or three .
in my experience after doing multiples and getting through the fog of 6 hands and legs raining down on me , when i squared up with one dude it was '' man this is easy''
and my timing was better i was more relaxed and not so emotionally connected just real calm .
but this is and should only be a small part of your training cus tomuch of this will build sloppy tactics you will get in the habit of running when you shold have stood your ground but if you understand what your getting out of it ,
it defenitly helps .
plus you find your self in those nasty spots that can happen in the street , on the ground , having to recover balance and position , eating punches and kicks , getting takled from behind while your focused on the one in front of you , this is all real fights that can happen in any venue you might be at , bar concert , club , market .
of course prevention is the best weapon but being familier with a bad position and being adaptable and able to recover is also good ttools to have .

paul
one o=f these days you need to explain me to myself

[whippinghand1]

Originally posted by Ernie
you see i love to explore the inherent weakness in wing chun '' the human condition'' and i see it's strength as it's weakness we tend to get a little arrogant and often this creates blinders.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the "human weakness" factor. The only problem with Wing Chun as with any martial art is the human weakness. Simply because the Wing Chun training that you've been exposed to does not suit your needs, does not mean that all Wing Chun is that way. It's understood that what you have available to you just doesn't cut it, but that is not to say that Wing Chun (as it is meant to be) is deficient.

look into the stuff people have a hard time with across the board, closing the gap, good boxers , ground fighters , multiple attackes and weapons,

It's all in there, son. Perhaps your training doesn't, but mine does. And it sounds like yuanfen's does too.

The other factor is time. Too many people want results right away. The JKD way (or similar approaches to training) are perfect for these types. But don't knock the system, until you've really done it. Any teacher of a martial art (not various), who really understands their art, will say it takes time to understand. If that's not for you, fine. Simply admit it, but don't knock the system. And don't assume you know what Wing Chun is or is not until you've put in the time.

in out selves and the art we inturn give back to the art by subjecting our bodies and minds to the testing ground

There are many ways to test Wing Chun. There are a myriad of drills and exercises (not just chi sau) that prepare you for the real thing, whatever you think the real thing is.

is this not how the art was created and progressed by look at what was out there and searching for better solutions.

The art as regressed considerably. Thus contributing to your attitudes about Wing Chun.

[yuanfen]

Ernie sez:here is a common misconception, were you assume you will be able to do this , but the reality is you will lack the adjustability especially when there is multiple targets and elevation changes '' the center disappears '' and for that split second while the person is trying to adjust to a line of attack and intesity of attack he has never felt or seen before he or she is vulnerable .
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Yes yes Ernie. The individual not just the art is the key in
an actual situation and you are preaching the obvious- at least to me.