Redirection of force/energy

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Liokault
Stickyhands


If you read the posts you will see that it is taichibob who is telling HuangKaiVun that as his style looks (in huangs own words) like weastern wrestling, it is somthing "other than" with the implication of being "less than".

I am very protective of tai chi and feel that taichibobs implication that unless it looks "quick, fluid, almost effortless" its not really tai chi is doing a great dis-service to tai chi and is giving more power to charlitans who promote false demonstrations and talk about chi.

Real tai chi when practiced between two people of similar abilities and physical attributes will indeed look like western wrestling as both guys are equaly adept at stoping the other look "quick, fluid, almost effortless".

First of all, I may be wrong, but as I read TaichiBob's remarks to HuangKaiVun, I sensed no intention nor implication to dictate that his kwoon is inferior than that of TaichiBob's. If you read previous posts of TaichiBob, you'd know as a man of maturity and venerable perception, he always devoided subjects such and refuted that no style is better. There is also still a topic lurking around down below which is titled "Yang Taichi not good enough to be a Martial Art", or something like that, again he went full throttle to clear up the misconception of the old harangue of "my style is better than yours." If you also had asked him, you'd know prior to his 15 years of different styles of Tai Chi, he was into complete external arts, 30 years altogether. So Id think he knows at least something of what he's talking about, and these is substantial substance. In the past, we had different point of perspectives, helk this is what this board is all about. But I didnt make the assumption that he didnt know his sh1t, or "so I think I am right, and go train and correct yourself you senile TaichiBob you, you know JACK!" Ok, no pun intended. lol.

And again, Taichi can be a lot of things, chi, no chi, or even seem like western wrestling to some people, but that serves no purpose to bash someone just because they dont dispose themselves to your kinds of conception. It's nice to see your protective of Tai Chi, but your not doing much a job of promoting or preserving the tradtions. By the way, not just TaiChi, but most MAs at their best are suppose to be "quick, fluid, almost effortless," he was simply restating how delicate and integral it was for Tai Chi in particular.

Originally posted by Liokault

Ok im going to be rude again.......

Taichibob says that his PARTNER is qualified to teach JKD, Muay Thai, Escrima, NHB, Kung Fu and is a san shou champ. but i see nothing to suggest that taichibob himself is doing anything other than tai bo.

Ok here, another paradox, because I see nothing that demonstrates TaiChiBob's lack of knowledge about MA or Tai Chi for that matter. In fact, I am completely oblvious to what you are trying to say, so do clarify what insightful evidence you have that reveals TaichiBob's fraudulent introspections.

Again this was fun. Thanks.

[Liokault]

Ok leaveing all the personal stuff aside, the basic thing that taichibob said (or implied....how ever u want to read it) was that if it looks like western wrestling its not tai chi.

The bottom line is that if its grappeling it going to look more or less like western wrestling.

If it does not look like western wrestling 90 percent of the time then your either not grappeling or your doing a demonstration!!!

hence taichibobs statment leads me to belive hes just not trying.

[StickyHands]

That is understandable, because that's your own personal opinion and perception, and TaiChiBob has his. But one needs to be mindful of it that you cant simply oppress your opinion over someone without any sign of practical demonstration, certainly not to online strangers. However, it is more precise to say that, yes, one perception is perhaps more accurate than the other, hehe, Ill just leave that to you guys to decide. lol. But regardless, we are all here to exchange opinions, give advice, share thoughts, learn from one another, but not verbally bash if it's not to our own reflection.

However, on a closer note, if anyone cared to speculate, instead of scrutinize with blind criticism, you'd see that TaichiBob did agree with your school of thoughts, you guys just didnt notice that, here take a closer look -

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
It has been my experience that Tai Chi reduced to "western wrestling"is more a combination of different styles (internal/external)..

Just another perspective, Be well..

See he did say internal, which mean stuff that you guys do are still Taichi with external influences. But then again, although Taichi leaning toward the internal side, we all know Taichi has external aspects as well, so in the end it doesnt matter. You guys kinda argued for no reason, and no, you're not practicing Tai Bo IM sure.

To quote TaichiBob, the star of our show, "Be Well."

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

First, thanks to StickyHands for reminding me of my original intent and keeping a centered perspective here.. StickyHands is correct, my original intent was to imply that, upon closer analysis, Tai Chi that appears to be wrestling is most likely influenced by other styles (internal and external).. And, as HuangKaiVun can attest, he and i have crossed "words" in the past.. and usually resolved the issues with little pain and no animosity.. It is the beauty of dialogue, to differ in perspectives and find common ground through exchange of ideas..

My original post was not at all intended to be mean-spirited, it was intended to spark introspection.. examine the wrestling and see if we can really call that the product of Tai Chi.. in that, i see i failed.. worse yet, i got caught-up defending a belief that needs no defense.. it is what it is, i guess i just feel the same passion we all do about Tai Chi and try to present in the most positive light possible (and that does not include embellishment, my observations are based on my experiences)..

And, so in closing.. i must confess that in a street situation whatever works wins the day.. multiple styles/applications are favored if your preferred style is having trouble managing the situation.. adapt and survive.. That being said, i do always rely on Tai Chi as my first line of defense, and it usually delivers the desired results.. if not, i do have alternative solutions..

I hope we can continue to communicate without feeling compelled to attack or defend "ideas" (that's what wars are made of)..

Be well..

[Liokault]

Taichibob


While I understand what you are trying to say I have 1 question that will end my interest in this thread.

Ok so you running a class, you ask 2 of your students to get on the mat and grapple telling them that this is a win or lose situation and that they need to win.

What does it look like?...or dont u do this?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Yes, we do this.. It looks a lot like moving push-hands, each trying to effect a controlling advantage.. a trap and lock or a push-pull uprooting with follow-up leg-hooks for a take-down.. we routinely express ChinNa to the point of demonstrating the potential for end-game moves, but.. we also try to preserve our classes' general health and well-being.. When we go to the striking game, we use grappling style gloves, minimal head-gear and that's when it gets interesting.. the current fighting class is learning about super-short-range power in their punches/shoulder strikes..

We have done much preparatory work to get to the point where we can go full-on and yet maintain enough control to avoid serious injury.. from new student to fighting is about 2 years, although sparring begins sooner than that, it is controlled and designed to get the student used to the breathing requirements, drill techniques and learn how to control adrenaline fatigue.. I am fanatical about using solid Tai Chi principles during the first 2-3 years of a students full-contact experience (build the foundation), then.. if i feel they are ready, its NHB.. so far, i have been pleasantly surprised at the retention of Tai Chi skills in the NHB matches (still, though.. the Muay Thai guys bug me )..

Many hours of drills are prerequisite for even the first adventure into hard fighting.. the energies and techniques of Tai Chi and ChinNa have considerable potential for effecting long-term disabilities in the untrained environment.. Much time is spent learning how to escape and reverse ChinNa/submission holds (relax and return to center, resistance is what makes ChinNa work).. Patience is important, the opponent will usually offer you a solution, unless your impatience offers him one first.. Much time is spent learning how to slip and reverse attacks, how to move into the on-coming power, deflect it, slip behind it and reverse its direction with a whipping FaJing type of push-pull on the intercepted limb.. (at the end of each arm is a head, follow the arm/find a head).. We also do a lot of pretty high-intensity blind pushing.. blindfolded, we push and use ChinNa while other students stand at the ready to catch a falling player.. (advanced students get to fall fully, it's time to experience the possibility)..

What does it look like?..... it looks like well-trained players enjoying the Art they love.. if it looks like wrestling, i haven't done my job.. When it does look like wrestling i let it go a little longer then we, as a class, analyze why it went wrong.. there's usually a reason..

Oh, and you should see our 2-person sword-play and knife-work.. (staff is on the horizon, too)..

Be well, and please don't lose interest in this thread.. you give me reason to question my own perspectives (that's a good thing)..

[StickyHands]

Any chi work, training, meditation, or chi being used in fighting TaiChiBob?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Yep.. the description in my last post only covers fighting classes.. we do forms, meditation.. we have instituted the Central Florida Tai Chi Club.. it meets once a month and ALL styles are welcome, we are expanding our learning in many directions.. As i said, i am fanatical about principles.. currently we are working on DanTien rotations and the connection to applications.. we are exploring the compression/expansion of the spiral and incorporating that into our formwork, initially exaggerated and slowly bringing it down to a barely perceptable efficient "wave" of power that rolls up from the ground and explodes at the application.. Chi? that's the stuff that makes all this work.. WuJi, ZhaZhuang, static posture holding for 10-20 minutes, all help cultivate Chi development..

Yes, we analyze each sparring match and look at exactly these qualities, look for ways to improve, look for excess to trim off..

Mostly, though.. we just have a really good time doing what we believe.. it's always just another day in paradise, we try to make the most of it..

Thanks, and Be well..

[StickyHands]

sounds cool.

[StickyHands]

TaichiBob, you said it takes at least 2 years for your disciples to initiate full contact fighting? So how long do the muay thai guys take? And after that 2 years, how does your Tai Chi students fair against the Muay Thai fighters? I know that Tai Chi is also the great healing process and ointment after the fight, since I am guessing you have a joint school, how do these muay thai guys heal or relax? Thanks.

[StickyHands]

I have one more question, how does the redirection of the energy to the ground and rooting work? Meaning if someone punches or kicks you hard, how can you simply absorb the force and send it to the earth without moving an inch or taking a damage? How do you develop such amazing power? I mean in that case forget about training how to fight, you can simply just keep taking hits and then when you're bored or the opponent is tired, just knock them out with one or two punches.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The Muay Thai guys begin fighting in about 4-6 months.. they do a lot of pre-conditioning.. In the short term the Tai Chi guys don't do so well unless they have had some prior training (most of my students have).. It seems that for the Tai Chi to begin being effective against other styles it takes about 5 years.. and even then, the difference in conditioning is difficult to overcome.. it's not until the Tai Chi guys discover that softness absorbs the hardness, until they actually learn to relax in the ring that they begin to neutralize attacks.. it just takes experience in the ring to acquire a relaxed but responsive style.. Currently, there is myself and two other students that can stand in the ring with the Muay Thai guys and have some degree of success, but even at +/-30% success i still see much room for improvement for myself and my students..

Both camps, the hard and the soft, use Dit Da Jow, Zheng Gu Shui, Woodlock, etc... we rub out the aches and pains and close with sets of QiGong and silk-reeling exercises to facillitate the herbs.. frequently, after formal class we chat theory and philosophy, grab some dinner or lunch ( or an occasional brew).. we have a very close group, here, everyone works to help each other..

Regarding "redirection", we don't just stand there (Tai Chi is not static).. we assume the dynamics of a spring.. suppose you take a big flexible spring and fix one end of it to the floor.. if you push it, it yields only to "spring" back and pop you.. if you punch it, same thing.. now, we try to be a moving spring that can sink its roots at will, move at will.. The spring will also rotate, compressing as it does.. then, as the rotation deflects the attack outward and away, we release the compression as a counter (grasping sparrow's tail is a good example of this).. Try to push the knee out over the rear foot as you compress the Dantien while pulling (liu), then.. as you press (ji) push with the rear leg and expand the compression with a wavelike motion up the spine, this will snap the palm to palm press into its target with significant results.. All that being said, we do train to receive energy as a direct push and direct it along a line through the frame to the ground, this is to train correct alignment.. if we can direct the fullness of a push into the ground, that same alignment supports our own push/attach with incredible direction and purpose.. that alignment is the "steel" within our "cotton"..

Then (here goes nothing) as we compress the Dantien, we pump Chi downward into the also compressing power leg, bouncing it off the ground we use Yi (intent) to shoot it along the alignment as the alignment snaps into place.. "shoot it along" means to use this Chi to activate the musclature so accurately and so powerfully as to acheive what looks like "magical results" to the untrained eye.. The process of moving energy (Chi) is, at first, a visualization/imagination until you have trained a path that your natural energy can easily find and travel.. the alignment, the musclature, and the energy act in symphony to multiply the desired effect beyond what is normally acheived without all three components.. At the center of all of this is "you", not the physical you, but the mind/spirit that directs the symphony.. like any good musician, if the musician believes the music they play it is apparent in the performance.. so it is with our symphony of Tai Chi, if we believe it it works.. if we move beyond belief into an inherent knowing, a knowing that we are the "marriage of heaven and earth", our Tai Chi will become superior.. (personally, i am still in the courting phase, hoping to pop the question soon, though )..

I hope i haven't been too verbose, i am only sharing "my" experiences.. i have no attachment to being "right", i only know what works for me.. if something else works for someone else, who's to say who's "right"..

Be well...

[StickyHands]

I think you should pop the question, I think 15 years of Tai Chi is a big commitment and simply just too long to be dating with the same girl.

[HuangKaiVun]

I stand by my original point.

When you really fight somebody - especially when he's not from your own school - it's going to get UGLY.

I've got some real bruisers in my school, male and female. When they practice against each other, they're using every cheap trick to try to mess each other up. Of course this is in a controlled setting, but even then the roughness and speed is there. People get tripped up, thrown down, tied up, pummelled, or pinned.

10 times out of 10, all of that pretty flowery stuff works against people who are cooperating. You fight anybody else who's really resisting, he's going to do stuff to make you look bad. No matter how good you get, you're going to face the reality of function over form. Throw in the reality of multiple opponents and it gets really ugly.

That's why I disagree 100% with TaiChiBob's version of Taijiquan, which goes against everything I and my students have ever learned and experienced in REAL combat as traditional combat martial artists. If real combat could be so flowing and effortless, then why hasn't the US Military adopted such measures in its combat methods?

As a traditional kung fu fighter of an authentic Neijiagong lineage, I'll be the first to attest that this "internal/external" divide is just bunk. Fighting is fighting, and you can't divide the two in a real fight no matter how you try. Hence the true authentic styles don't even bother trying with this meaningless matter because it gets in the way of combat proficiency. Let it be clear that TaiChiBob and I do NOT agree on this matter.

By the way, we eventually will send a student into the cage arena. He'll be doing 100% traditional kung fu, which means that it won't be pretty and flowing and enlightened and stuff. This is real life, not the movies. Liokault (a hardened fighter himself) has already told you how it is in that scenario.

TaiChiBob and I have disagreed about what real kung fu looks like. And the divide will only get bigger, not smaller.


Don't forget, TaiChiBob, that you told me that you could break bricks with a light slap and do a massive amount of damage with a small touch.

I offered to visit your school, sending you a PM. You never wrote back.

So if I sound antagonistic, it's because I AM. Don't even dare try to accuse me of refusing to visit when I asked to see you and your school.

[brassmonkey]

This joker has got to be trolling after reading a bunch of Huang's posts lately. If your not what city do you teach in Huang I'll be really suprised if its listed in the yellow pages.