Redirection of force/energy

[Jotaro Joestar]

I have recently discussed the redirection of force from a hit (punch/push/kick) with some Tai Chi students and they had very little knowledge of the subject. They knew that it was possible and that that was the "idea" behind some of the moves, but never trained in it in their classes. I was wondering how many people actually train to be able to redirect the force that comes at them down to the ground and how effective that they are at doing it? I do not study Tai Chi, but I have been trying to train myself to do this. I guess it is more of a question of actually applying Tai Chi defensive philosophy. I am not interested in the redirection into a throw or another hit, but just the redirection of force down to the ground.

Thank you in advance.

Jotaro Joestar

[taijiquan_student]

Do you mean rooting? Like if someone pushes on my chest, I stand there and root it (not yielding, just letting the force go into the ground)? That's just having good structure and root, which are related. In the beginning you can only do it if some pushes at your hip or something, but as time goes on if someone pushes higher up on your chest it'll just go right through your structure to the ground. Is this what you mean? If you are using rollback, for example, you're yielding and "leading the opponent into nothingness", but you're not redirecting their strike into the ground.

[Jotaro Joestar]

It sounds like it may be the same. For me, it is like a micro-serpentine motion to redirect the force. I have had no in-class experince with this. It is something that I have been working on my own, so I am not familiar with the terminology in this area.

[Becca]

Sifu comes by and tries to knock us over when in stances. He says that the only way to make sure your stances are sound is to have someone test it in this way. Makes alot of sence when you think about it. A perfect extreme low horse is useless if a strong breaze can knock you over.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Aside from the supremely important issue of rooting.. posture, sensitivity, adjustments to varying incoming forces, breath.. all are interconnected when redirecting energy.. no rigid posture will survive a competent attack, it is the orchestrated response to such attacks that redirect the energy.. i don't test my student's stances, i listen to their active responses to applied energies.. too often i see people training in magnificent stance work only to find out that physics overides fixed stances.. if you draw a line from heel to heel and apply force perpendicular to that line the only way to redirect that force is to move and adapt (the feet can remain fixed, but the torso must rotate the line of attack off center and away from the perpendicular line)..

Must run for now, but this is a good topic.. will return later.. Be well..

[wiz cool c]

In the Chen style I have been learning in the push hands patterns you redirect the persons energy. Basicaly that is the way you learn this skill I beleave then you test it in freestyle push hands.

[HuangKaiVun]

The way we teach Taijiquan in our school, our students are very hard to hit because they're in constant motion.

They won't necessarily try to intercept your punch with a given technique, but they'll ride your upper arms and try to pin your legs for a takedown or choke. Try to jab them with kicks or punches and they'll dance out of your range, block, or rush you and tie you up.

When you see two or more Taijquan students fighting at a time in our school, you'll see something that looks a lot like Western wrestling. Look closely and you'll see a lot of illegal moves that are deliberately outlawed by standard academic wrestling rules.

Combat taijiquan is all about force redirection - and dirty fighting.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

When you see two or more Taijquan students fighting at a time in our school, you'll see something that looks a lot like Western wrestling. Look closely and you'll see a lot of illegal moves that are deliberately outlawed by standard academic wrestling rules.

Somehow, that sounds like something other than Tai Chi.. The most efficient and well executed applications i have seen were difficult to comprehend.. quick, fluid, almost effortless, and.. little resemblance to "Western wrestling".. It has been my experience that Tai Chi reduced to "western wrestling"is more a combination of different styles (internal/external)..

Just another perspective, Be well..

[Liokault]

TaiChiBOb

If you put 2 guys into a situation where buy they are gojng to wrestal then it will indeed look like weastern werstling.

Your statment leads me to belive that you do not get your students to grapple

The most efficient and well executed applications i have seen were difficult to comprehend.. quick, fluid, almost effortless

HuangKaiVun is not comenting on how his students look whilst talking about a half assed application from a half remembered form, he is comenting on how his students look when they are grappeling with an oponent who is not only resisting but is trying to get his own throw on/blow in.



There are times when applied tai chi can look (to quote) quick, fluid, almost effortless.




1/ During a demonstration

2/ When done during practice with a willing oponent

3/ when done with an oponent way below your skill level.


So to sum up, well done HuangKaiVun......go train harder TaiChiBOb.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

While i agree with the premise of your post, that generally the quality of Tai Chi today will appear to be "Western wrestling".. the assumption that i need to train harder is unfounded..

What is apparent to me is that you haven't seen good Tai Chi application in a full-on setting.. The appearance of "western wrestling" is evidence that the player's training hasn't matured yet.. The school where i teach is both external and internal, my partner is certified as an instructor in JKD, Muay Thai, Escrima, NHB, Kung Fu, and about half a dozen more arts.. he also won the Gold medal in the All China Kung Fu San Shou event Circa 1996 or 97.. we spar between the internal and external groups and it seldom results in "western wrestling", when it goes to the ground ChinNa usually wins the day.. the most difficult style to deal with is Muay Thai (at 52 my shins and thighs don't like MT brutallity).. MT is effecient and compromises Tai Chi sticking with its own version (with piston-like knees distracting the listening process).. Yet, even with MT if you can stay focused on the "Tai Chi theory of circles" the game is winable..

Aside from that, too often we lose our ability to reach the deeper potential of Tai Chi abilities by yeilding to the ego's desire to "show your stuff" too early.. then the Tai Chi just gets absorbed by general fighting attitudes in the ring or in the streets.. patience and dedication will usually erase the "Western wrestling" image..

Just my own version, be well..

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Liokault

So to sum up, well done HuangKaiVun......go train harder TaiChiBOb.

If I may something, Liokault you were exceptionally rude there without prudent justification.

[HuangKaiVun]

For once, we agree Liokault.

And no, you're not being rude at all. You're just stating what you felt - and the way things really are when confronted by an opponent who isn't going to play dead.

It takes a fighter to know a fighter. Thanks for the support.


REAL traditional kung fu doesn't "look" any specific way, no matter what form specialists claim.

It just HURTS to fight against, that's all.

[StickyHands]

To point out what you just said, a contradictory statement right there, if Kung Fu doesnt look any specific way at all, then how would it look like anything like "western wrestling"? Perhaps your just projecting your perception or of your kwoon, but even then, it has a little logic behind what you said before and what you said now. And with the inclusion of yours and Liokault's pespectives, just because real Taichi, whatever it may be, perhaps"looks" like western wrestling, that arouses Liokault's "freedom of stating what he felt," and hence serves the right to command TaiChiBob to go and train harder with a malicious tone and lack of respect? Does he or do you have any idea how long TaiChiBob has been training? Forget that, did you or him ever followed or read his posts in the past? Just wondering... who practices Tai Chi and who practices Tai Bo with grappling.

[Liokault]

Stickyhands


If you read the posts you will see that it is taichibob who is telling HuangKaiVun that as his style looks (in huangs own words) like weastern wrestling, it is somthing "other than" with the implication of being "less than".

I am very protective of tai chi and feel that taichibobs implication that unless it looks "quick, fluid, almost effortless" its not really tai chi is doing a great dis-service to tai chi and is giving more power to charlitans who promote false demonstrations and talk about chi.

Real tai chi when practiced between two people of similar abilities and physical attributes will indeed look like western wrestling as both guys are equaly adept at stoping the other look "quick, fluid, almost effortless".


Ok im going to be rude again.......

Taichibob says that his PARTNER is qualified to teach JKD, Muay Thai, Escrima, NHB, Kung Fu and is a san shou champ. but i see nothing to suggest that taichibob himself is doing anything other than tai bo.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

If you read the posts you will see that it is taichibob who is telling HuangKaiVun that as his style looks (in huangs own words) like weastern wrestling, it is somthing "other than" with the implication of being "less than".

If Liokualt interpreted my post as suggesting HuangKaiVun's Art is "less than" Tai Chi, he is mistaken.. i have much respect for many arts, and.. just to be clear, the implication is that at its higher levels Tai Chi handles most styles efficiently, without the appearance of "western wrestling".. if someone has no experience at this level it is only natural that they would contradict that statement.. that's okay, it doesn't diminish my experience at all..

Taichibob says that his PARTNER is qualified to teach JKD, Muay Thai, Escrima, NHB, Kung Fu and is a san shou champ. but i see nothing to suggest that taichibob himself is doing anything other than tai bo.

Here's an interesting personality observation.. someone choosing to be rude, to what end? why be rude? Let's be clear here, i am not trying to make myself look superior to someone else, i come to this forum to exchange perspectives in hopes of expanding my own experience.. Those that spend so much time telling the rest of us just how "bad" they are and tooting their own horn are generally looking for something they don't have.. Now, Liokault's last sentence in the above quote is partially correct.. "but i see nothing".. the rest of the sentence is conjecture based on absolutely no actual direct knowledge.. it's not rude, it's immature and indicates no desire to exchange ideas/experiences.. he, himself, says it's rude.. designed to provoke rather than communicate.. It becomes apparent why some people's Tai Chi looks like "western wrestling", it's their nature.. unrefined..

I am very protective of tai chi and feel that taichibobs implication that unless it looks "quick, fluid, almost effortless" its not really tai chi is doing a great dis-service to tai chi and is giving more power to charlitans who promote false demonstrations and talk about chi.

Again, Liokault has interpreted incorrectly.. the "implication" is that at Tai Chi's higher levels it does look that way, but the road there is just as much Tai Chi as the goal it aspires to acheive.. NOW, the real dis-service is to compare Tai Chi to "western wrestling".. those WWF spandex morons that do choreographed jumps from the top ring-ropes and throw refs out of the ring while blonde bimbos hold their pink feather boas.. that's the mental image one has of "western wrestling".. and, that, friends, is NOT my Tai Chi.. If someone compares their Tai Chi to that image i am compelled to question its quality..

In closing, i regret the remarks i made regarding HuangKaiVun's post.. not because they were incorrect or without merit.. but, because i should have seen this coming.. I suggest that prior to assaulting someone's character that you make the journey to their place of training and find out the truth, have a face to face experience.. then, if you are still convinced that i or anyone else you choose to slander are inconsistent with the principles of Tai Chi or back their words with deeds, then we can have a dialogue based on experience rather than spiteful conjecture or dark imaginings..

I apologize for the direction this has gone, it was not my original intent.. Be well..