How do *you* define "Grandmaster?"

**Ravenshaw** · 07-02-2003, 08:28 PM

In as commercial a society as today's, titles such as "master" and "grandmaster" and "super-honorable-master-of-the-ways-of-kicking-your-a$$-while-being-humble-at-the-same-time" are thrown around like confetti. But what do you really think a "Grandmaster" is/should be? I've been given several answers and some of these are above.

If you have another idea, please share.

**Serpent** · 07-02-2003, 08:39 PM

It's a western ideal, usually used by people with an ego that greatly outweighs their ability.

**joedoe** · 07-02-2003, 08:44 PM

In the most literal sense - someone whose student has become a master. Which leads to the equally sticky question "How do you define a master?"

**Becca** · 07-02-2003, 09:07 PM

A teacher who's student has become a teacher is no better than he/she was before the student became a teacher. But they were not Grandmasters prior, so they should not become one for this reason alone.

However, CMA has a long tradition of only passing the secrits of any given style to the elite of the teacher's pupils. A Grandmaster might have 40 Sifus but only pass on the full style to one or two. Those that hold the full style, and therefore become part of the liniage, are the only ones with enough distinction to be placed higher than his/her peers.

**joedoe** · 07-02-2003, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Becca
A teacher who's student has become a teacher is no better than he/she was before the student became a teacher. But they were not Grandmasters prior, so they should not become one for this reason alone.

However, CMA has a long tradition of only passing the secrits of any given style to the elite of the teacher's pupils. A Grandmaster might have 40 Sifus but only pass on the full style to one or two. Those that hold the full style, and therefore become part of the liniage, are the only ones with enough distinction to be placed higher than his/her peers.

I guess that is what I was getting at with the question "How do you define a Master?"

**Oso** · 07-03-2003, 05:55 AM

A student could actually be better than their sifu.

Maybe that's it: If you can teach people to be better than you are at something you know than maybe, just maybe, you really do know what the hell you are talking about.

???

**Surferdude** · 07-03-2003, 06:25 AM

Has to be at least 100 years old, with a long beard and knows everything, and when you ask a question they give answers in riddles, or proverbs

**David Jamieson** · 07-03-2003, 06:34 AM

Grandmaster is a relatively new term in Kungfu circles.

It has been used to replace "Sigung".

It doesn't really have the same meaning though.

I am one who is not in favour of using the term because it is misrepresentative on a few levels.

cheers

**apoweyn** · 07-03-2003, 07:07 AM

Mixed feelings, really. Grandmaster Canete uses the term. And I respect him a great deal. But my respect has sod all to do with the term and everything to do with the man. So while I think the term is completely inconsequential, I'm not going to assert that he shouldn't use it.

Better to just ignore the title and look at the individual. After all, if you went to a new doctor's office for the first time and he turned out to be a cross-eyed drunk, you wouldn't shrug that off because he had the title 'doctor', right? You'd presumably find another one.

Stuart B.

**dezhen2001** · 07-03-2003, 07:31 AM

for me, i sometimes say grandmaster, but i generally mean Tai Sigung... that is my teachers, teachers, teacher. Yip Chun for ME for example, which does not mean for neccessarily anyone else outside my lineage.

Usually i use Sifu, Sigung or Tai Sigung, but the last two only for MY teachers teacher etc. For anyone elses treacher i would use Sifu.

make sense?

dawood

**Shaolinlueb** · 07-03-2003, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by Surferdude
Has to be at least 100 years old, with a long beard and knows everything, and when you ask a question they give answers in riddles, or proverbs

you forgot they can hear how many people there are in the room by their breathing.

**Surferdude** · 07-03-2003, 11:46 AM

No they can smell 'em!!!

Or just sense them

**norther practitioner** · 07-03-2003, 11:50 AM

: If you can teach people to be better than you are at something you know than maybe, just maybe, you really do know what the hell you are talking about.

hel| yeah...

I like the whole individual thing, not the title... although I'll give some respect towards all grand masters... 'cause even though they deserve it, some of there people are decieving others a whole nother generation away.

**Dark Knight** · 07-03-2003, 01:11 PM

Today everyone wants to be a "Grand Master". There are a couple "Sokeship Council"'s out there that will sell you the title.

Go to Phil Porters site and he will sell you the rank and title.

Don't be imnpressed by people with the title, most of it is ego, I have met 35 year old Grand Masters. Even one 19 year old 10th Degree.

Buyer beware.

**hasayfu** · 07-03-2003, 01:36 PM

I like Serpents defn the best.

Joedoe is close but misses an important aspect.

As Kung Lek says, in TCMA terms, Grandmaster is the english translation for Si-Gung. Si-Gung only means MY teacher's teacher. So calling someone Si-Gung Wong is like calling him Grand-Daddy Wong. You would only call people in YOUR direct line that title. Tai-Si_Gung, BTW, is MY teacher's, teacher's teacher.

Now people have co-opted the term in english. They have taken it to mean an Uber-master. It can also get complicated because while Sifu can means teacher, it can be used as master when refering to people outside of your line. In english, a parallel would be father vs. Mr. for the two Sifus. Joe Smith wouldn't call his dad, father Smith or his father's friend Father Green.

This gets us back to Serpents definition.

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