Somethin i wrote up for anti-grapplin folks

[red5angel]

I sense a sport vs reality thing coming on....

For me personally it is just about context. If you are training for a sport then you should train apropriately, same with "reality". Either way I don't think either category is excludes the possibilities in striking or ground work.

[Brad Souders]

My friend to make this a complete have nothing to do with the topic u should have thrown in about multiple attackers.

Everyone from a "pro" fighter to your average street thug knows how to hit the nuts and eye gouge. U act like these weapons are secret techniques. When i waz reading my rules of street fighting hand book last night they even showed a drunk slob eye gouging someone as he fell into him.

A few minor adjustments in training for a "mma" guy would fix problems like these. Turn the hip sideways when clinching limits groin shots. When clinching keep your head high and near the opponents neck to limit his reach on your eye level.

Hell i have no idea what this has to do with my article but i'm always up for good discussion.

Tonight i'll create a thread on a bar fight i had a couple months ago and i want everyone to analyze and discussion the event so we can all learn from mistakes i already know happened.

Later, Brad

[Suntzu]

Hell i have no idea what this has to do with my article ...

u been here long enuff... you should know better...

[Merryprankster]

OK RD, whatever you say.

Rent an IVT with Mark Kerr in it.

Kung Fu is brutal blahblahblah.

Yah happy?

[Royal Dragon]

Merryprankster,
You got it wrong, I'm not saying "Kung Fu is brutal Ha ha ha ha haaaa (Evil laugh)", I'm saying MMA ground fighting is NOT brutal.

Injuries are rare, and usually minor. It's all Pain compliance stuff from some sort of pin. It's a submission because it "Hurts" to much to continue, or your "Afraid" of a potential injury, NOT a failure to continue because your too damm busted up to function anymore because some guy just did a full weighted knee drop on your lower rib cage and caved it in thus puncturing your right lung after throwing you down hard enough on the concret to knock the wind out of you.

THAT is the difference between real Kung Fu and MMA. Intentionally maiming your opponent is pretty much illegal in any event, but just a matter of not holding back so much in a real fight if your trained in a legit Kung Fu system.

[Chang Style Novice]

RD - You never saw one of those clips of Mark Kerr kneeing a guy in the head on the ground repeatedly? Another good example of the "non-brutal" groundfighting found in MMA is the Don Frye-Amaury Bitetti fight. It was awful watching the last couple minutes of that. I kept on saying to the TV - "Stop the fight! The guy isn't doing anything but covering up! Stop the fight!"

[Royal Dragon]

How many severly injured were there? did they require emergency surgery after the fight? What are the stats on severly injured MMA fighters?

How often do you guys have to rush a fighter to the hospital to save him form dying because his ribs were collapesd into his lungs?

kneeling on a guys head is'nt the same as throwing him hard enough to knock the wind out of him, and doing a full weighted knee drop on the side of his head or neck. Infact, kneeling down is how we safetly train the technique. It's actually easier to let the momentum pull you inot the drop.

I don't care how "Ugly" MMA fights get, the injury rate is still really low, because it's not really very brutal. It's just scarry and painful. They are still bound by both human dignity, honor, and the RULES to try NOT to intentionally main eachother. That rule ensures a lack of brutality, reguardless of how "ugly " it is.

Anyway, it does not matter, just so long as you know I meant to say "MMA ground fighting is not brutal" instead of saying "Kung Fu ground fighting is too brutal for the ring."

[Merryprankster]

I don't care how "Ugly" MMA fights get, the injury rate is still really low, because it's not really very brutal. It's just scarry and painful. They are still bound by both human dignity, honor, and the RULES to try NOT to intentionally main eachother. That rule ensures a lack of brutality, reguardless of how "ugly " it is.

Ah. The sign of a non-competitor.

You are there to do everything possible within the rules to hurt your opponent. The REFEREE ensures that things don't get out of hand, and that the injury rate remains low. If you don't think a fighter would continue beating the crap out of somebody until they are unconcious or something breaks, you've GOT NO idea. I guarentee you that Vanderlei, Mark Coleman, Frye, etc, won't stop kick****ing a guy until they can't get up or the ref says its over.

I have popped a couple guy's arms in tournaments because they refused to tap and the ref didn't step in in time. I would have kept going too, despite the pop.

Rhadi has a little speech he gives "The other guy's face is his responsibility." Same thing here.

Let me say it again--most fighters are there to cause as much damage as possible, rendering the opponent no longer able to continue. The REFEREE is the person that keeps it from going to the emergency room (and then, not always).

Nevermind. I'm arguing with a brick wall.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

Injuries are rare, and usually minor. It's all Pain compliance stuff from some sort of pin.

Tell that to all of the grapplers who have had popped arms, legs, etc. Simple fact is injuries WILL happen, unless you're not really training. and what happens when you are in the street where you don't give a d@mn about someone tapping? broken limbs are brutal in my book.

It's a submission because it "Hurts" to much to continue, or your "Afraid" of a potential injury, NOT a failure to continue because your too damm busted up to function anymore because some guy just did a full weighted knee drop on your lower rib cage and caved it in thus puncturing your right lung after throwing you down hard enough on the concret to knock the wind out of you.

Once again, tell that to the grapplers who have had competitions stopped due to injuries. And where are these brutal kung fu tournies?


THAT is the difference between real Kung Fu and MMA. Intentionally maiming your opponent is pretty much illegal in any event, but just a matter of not holding back so much in a real fight if your trained in a legit Kung Fu system.

you hope to not hold back, but yet when you train, you pull punches, don't fully strike your target areas, etc... How will that make you more brutal than the MMA guy? At least he's not pulling punches all the time. they grapple all out. The nature of grappling allows them to slow down AFTER they've gone full out to get the sub that they got. grapplers really fight, compete, etc. like they train - not all MA can say that. I'll stop my comments on that above quote right there, because I don't wanna take the blame for starting a style war.

[Royal Dragon]

You people aren't getting this are you.


Injuries are rare, and usually minor. It's all Pain compliance stuff from some sort of pin.

Tell that to all of the grapplers who have had popped arms, legs, etc. Simple fact is injuries WILL happen, unless you're not really training. and what happens when you are in the street where you don't give a d@mn about someone tapping? broken limbs are brutal in my book.

Reply]
The street is not the issue here. And if it were, the LAST place you want to be is tied up un the concrete trying to "Submit" a guy. The Kung Fu Ground wold be more accurate, it's quick and eficient, and it keeps you on your feet so it's easier to deal wiht his reinforcments.


It's a submission because it "Hurts" to much to continue, or your "Afraid" of a potential injury, NOT a failure to continue because your too damm busted up to function anymore because some guy just did a full weighted knee drop on your lower rib cage and caved it in thus puncturing your right lung after throwing you down hard enough on the concret to knock the wind out of you.

Once again, tell that to the grapplers who have had competitions stopped due to injuries. And where are these brutal kung fu tournies?

Reply]
I don't know, have not seen too many fights stopped due to injury. It does happen, but most end in a submission where the loser just tapps out. Infact that's the most common occurance.


THAT is the difference between real Kung Fu and MMA. Intentionally maiming your opponent is pretty much illegal in any event, but just a matter of not holding back so much in a real fight if your trained in a legit Kung Fu system.

you hope to not hold back, but yet when you train, you pull punches, don't fully strike your target areas, etc... How will that make you more brutal than the MMA guy?

Reply]
It's irrelevant to the argument. MMA's Ground fighting is not brutal, it's a humane way of figthing in the ring designed to minimise dammage. Kung Fu ground fighting is designed to maim asap and is considerably more brutal than MMA's Ground which is desgned to force a submission. Infatc, we don't even use it in our own tournies, for that very reason.

At least he's not pulling punches all the time. they grapple all out. The nature of grappling allows them to slow down AFTER they've gone full out to get the sub that they got. grapplers really fight, compete, etc. like they train - not all MA can say that. I'll stop my comments on that above quote right there, because I don't wanna take the blame for starting a style war.

Reply]
Training styles are irrelevant to the argument as it does not address the general design and intent of the systems. MMA uses a much more humane ground system based on *Pain* compliance and fear of injury to force submissions. Kung Fu's ground just breaks an opponent as much as possible with little considerationfor the opponents well being. MMA Ground seeks to make the opponent *Give Up*, Kung Fu Ground seeks to cripple them so they can't continue on even if they wanted to.

[Merryprankster]

I reiterate:

See Kerr in an IVT.

See Silva vs. Sakuraba.

See Coleman vs. Allan Goes.

See Igor Vovchanchin vs. Enson Inoue.


These are just the ones off the top of my head where a brutal beatdown was delivered. Kerr pounded his opponents into a bloody mass. Sliva soccer kicked and bootstomped Saku into a ref stoppage. Coleman kneed Goes until he was unconcious, and Vovchanchin beat on Inoue so badly he couldn't crawl back to his corner.

Finally, what you term "pain compliance" isn't "pain compliance." It's tap or it breaks. I hardly consider joint breakage to be "pain compliance." Pain compliance is more like LE come-alongs. The ground fighting is DESIGNED to break joints, pound you unconcious or make you sleep with a choke. The fact that they allow people to tap out or have a ref stoppage is just a nicety. In the street, I ain't stopping till I know the other guy is broken and OOC, any more than you or a KF fighter would or would be allowed to just tee off on somebody's face and ribs repeatedly when it's clear they're done, in a sportive context.

I'd say you're the one not getting it.

[red5angel]

grappling is for suckas!!!!

[apoweyn]

Royal Dragon,

You people aren't getting this are you.

You people. Nice.

"Elitism. Table for one."

The street is not the issue here. And if it were, the LAST place you want to be is tied up un the concrete trying to "Submit" a guy. The Kung Fu Ground wold be more accurate, it's quick and eficient, and it keeps you on your feet so it's easier to deal wiht his reinforcments.

Here's the problem I consistently have with this argument: Nobody's claiming that going to the ground is ideal against multiple opponents, in an alley, etc. Just that it happens. Or are you suggesting that there's little chance of you ending up on your arse when you're outnumbered?

Again, the question is not whether it's advisable. Only whether it's likely.


Stuart B.

[red5angel]

I don't get why this argument persists to be honest, especially on this form where it has been submitted and punched to death a few times.

I think we should have a rule on KFO. If you want to make a blanket statement about an art, of any kind and any range, you should have to go out and prove your point. Get together with some of those _____ and see if what you are saying really holds true. Let's say a minimum of 6 different practictioners of varying levels that should give you a good idea of who you are dealing with. If there are kultiple schools of _____ in your area I say hit a couple of them.
This week I have a sparring match with a guy from a popular TKD school in the area because while everyone is badmouthing TKD I have a feeling it isn't as slouch an art as people are thinking.

[apoweyn]

Well said, red5.

And, needless to say, we'll all be interested in hearing how the sparring match goes. (Especially me, being a former taekwondoka myself.)


Stuart B.