Somethin i wrote up for anti-grapplin folks

[red5angel]

Also I should mention you should provide pictures or something to back it up.
Ap, no problem, he and I are getting together on friday night at my house to mix it up a little. He seems like a cool guy and when I brought up sparring he jumped right on it so it should be a good experience.

[Ray Pina]

I guess I would fall under the "kung fu" label, but hell, I have a ton of respect for MMA guys. These guys are capable of causing a ton of damage, as much as they want/are allowed to do.

By the same token, I can't think of a time I saw someone taken out on a stretcher from a kung fu tournament. Get this: the most brutal tournament I've been in recently? Tae Kwon Do believe it or not. The first heavy weight fight a second dregree black belt walked right into a front kick and cought it with his face. Down and out. The kicker was off balance and everything, but it did its job.

As a kung fu guy it was rough playing by their rules too: no punching the face, no trapping the hands, no striking the kicking leg or supporting leg, no takedowns. Needles to say I was disqualified. But not after putting the guy down about five times and catching a cresent kick with my collar bone. Could I have ended the "fight" after the first exchange? Absolutely. I had his arms pinned and punching the hell out of his stupid red dot on the side of his mandatory gear (that would have been his jaw). But I couldn't end the MATCH. The ref broke it as I drove him out of the ring and penalized me for "holding."

Don't confuse competiton with all out ass kicking. But I have to say the line between the two looks very slim in those reality fights. Thus the name I guess.

[ewallace]

MMA uses a much more humane ground system based on *Pain* compliance and fear of injury to force submissions. Kung Fu's ground just breaks an opponent as much as possible with little considerationfor the opponents well being. MMA Ground seeks to make the opponent *Give Up*, Kung Fu Ground seeks to cripple them so they can't continue on even if they wanted to.

When is this practiced? Are training parters getting broken ribs, punctured lungs and the like? Why would it be any different for a "Kung Fu" fighter, who doesn't actually go thru with the movements in practice, and a MMA fighter, who stops the movement when the opponent taps?

[weightvest]

I mean the thing is, it all really depends on your environment.

Remember, the old style kungfu which is rarely about these days (literally only a handful of people with that skill and knowledge) was designed purely with the saying of "if my first hit doesn't kill you, the second one will". It wasn't about messing about. Grappler wouldn't stand a chance.

But you also have to remember two very important ket factors:

1) What are the chances someone with that skill and knowledge is going to confront you?

2) Ring fighting is a totally different story all together.

All this talk of these fighters, like Royce and whoever, wouldn't stand a chance against some of the "frail old men" that exist in China. I certainly know of a few aged T'ai Chi Grandmasters who would knock their blocks off (and contrary to popular belief, T'ai Chi is very much a stirking art as much as it is a disrupting art.)

BUT these arts they study, and the way they practise, and very valid for our type of society! I would most certainly put my money down on the fact no-one in our world has the skill to use a phoenix eye to literally burst the heart, or other vital organ.

My only real qualm about the whole grappling thing is, well, why on Earth do people like going to ground? That's the last place I want to be. I certainly don't want to be using up my hands holding the person, because what then do I use to stop him making a quick crack at my temple and killing me? It's all too much of a show of strength to me rather than fighting. really, honestly, you want the fight to end as quickly and effortlessly as possible: "If my first hit doesn't kill you the second one will".

And in the glorious way of going full circle "How many people can actually do that?" Thus grappling is as valid in our day as any other thing.

[Oso]

As a kung fu guy it was rough playing by their rules too: no punching the face, no trapping the hands, no striking the kicking leg or supporting leg, no takedowns. Needles to say I was disqualified. But not after putting the guy down about five times and catching a cresent kick with my collar bone. Could I have ended the "fight" after the first exchange? Absolutely. I had his arms pinned and punching the hell out of his stupid red dot on the side of his mandatory gear (that would have been his jaw). But I couldn't end the MATCH. The ref broke it as I drove him out of the ring and penalized me for "holding."

LOL

I hear ya, man. I'm having a heck of a time adjusting to sport jujitsu rules.

no strikes to the front of the face is killing me. at least you can strike the back from behind....now I just need to get my foot speed up a little to get my fat ass flanking better.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, lets try this again, MMA ground looks to submit, Kung Fu looks to Maim how much more simple can it get? it's a different mindset. If I were to fight in the MMA, and slam a guy down on the mat, and then do a full weighted knee drop on his ribs, maybe bounce on the injury a couple of times to make sure I killed him good, i'd be disqualified for intentionally trying to maim my opponent.

See the difference? In one I don't care if he tapps, i'm trying to perminantly cripple him, if not kill him, the other I'm just attacking till he says "Uncle".

If MMA ground fighting is Sooooo frick'n brutal how come we don't see guys carried away in stretchers with perminant, crippling injuries, never able to walk again? Where are all the guys that got killed fighting in these matches? Where are the guys who must now live out thier lives in wheel chairs because their spines got broke? Wheres the multiple deaths at every match? How come there are no incedents of peoples wind pipes getting crushed from Eagle claw techniques or break breaking chops to the adams apple wile they are laying on the ground? Where's all the guys who had thier anckles broke?? I don't mean a sprain, I mean complete breaks. Why don't we see a dozen busted knee caps every fight?? Where's all the busted elbows? (Not popped, but clean breaks)

Really man, you guys don't allow real brutality for the same reasons we don't. The difference is we work on those techniques as the foucus of our training, and you guys work on Submissions as the focus of your training, because Submissions are humane, non brutal ways of winning these competitons (Winning them is your primary focus BTW).

Yes people get hurt sometimes, mostly spraines from what I see, but I have yet to see the medics rush in with a stretcher and start performing emergency care on a guy whose rib cage just got crushed in and is lying on the mat dying right infront of the entire audience. I have yet to see the medics rush in and try to save the life of a fighter who got thrown down and had his head and stomped full power repetedly on his head and or neck, by a standing opponent, till it practically popped. What I see is guys twisting eachother up in bizzar Yoga potures till they tapp. At best, MMA ground figting has some ugly ground and pounds, but nothing truly brutal.

Seriously, if you guys are sooo Brutal, how come we see all this hugging and snuggling? Why don't you just ram your full body weight with your, knee point, into thier necks and bounce them repeatedly till they die? THAT would be brutal.

[Royal Dragon]

When is this practiced? Are training parters getting broken ribs, punctured lungs and the like?

Reply]
We train in class. What we do to keep the brutality doen to a minimum, and the safety upop to a maximum is to controll the decent so we end up just leaning on their ribs instead of comming crashing down full power. Just like the example above of the guy getting his head leaned on.

Why would it be any different for a "Kung Fu" fighter, who doesn't actually go thru with the movements in practice, and a MMA fighter, who stops the movement when the opponent taps?

Reply]
Simple, your intent is to make them tapp, it's the goal. Ours is to maim the opponent. We just don't follow through with it because we need people to practice with, and if we break them all we will have no one. Brutality must be limited in any training envoriment. You can really only get so close in practice no matter who you are. MMA guys, especially the ground, intentionally ignors good opertunityes to win quicklly, soley because those oppertunityes would require great brutality, and having to harm or cripple the opponent. You TRAIN to ignore those options and instead mount and go for some sort of more humane, non brutal submission.

This really isn't about "Kung fu is brutal Muahahahahahah (Evil laugh)", it's more about pointing out that MMA Ground fighting is not brutal. Most of your stuff isn't going to put the guy in a stretcher. You don't even train with that as the goal, it's the furthes thing from your intent, it's not even on your mind, you train to submitt and make'em tap.

[red5angel]

Royal Dragon, two things you learn right away in grappling is when to tap and when to let go, so you DON'T hurt anyone. Your goal as a grappler may not be to maim anyone but you apply a hold that hurts, you can bet that if you just push/pull/squeeze a little harder and you are going to seriously hurt someone.

Basically all this stuff you are saying can be turned around in a sporting event. TKD doesn't often teach you to maim or kill so much as score points but your fooling yourself if you think a good TKD person can't hurt or kill you.

You're right of course, Kungfu often teaches you killing maiming or breaking techniques. I have been to a few tourneys now where kungfu guys are out for injuries, same with grappling guys. IT might be happening more at kungfu tourneys but then is it technique or lack of control? Thos MMA guys train pretty hard. Alot harder sometimes then the kungfu guys!

"Why don't you just ram your full body weight with your, knee point, into thier necks and bounce them repeatedly till they die? "

You answered this question yourself. They aren't in there to kill each other. How many people from your school have been killed while practicing or sparring?

[Royal Dragon]

Ha haaaaa!!!, FINALLY someone that understands my frik'n piont!!!! Good job!!!

Royal Dragon, two things you learn right away in grappling is when to tap and when to let go, so you DON'T hurt anyone. Your goal as a grappler may not be to maim anyone but you apply a hold that hurts, you can bet that if you just push/pull/squeeze a little harder and you are going to seriously hurt someone.

Reply]
See, humane, not brutal. This is my exact point.

>>Basically all this stuff you are saying can be turned around in a sporting event. TKD doesn't often teach you to maim or kill so much as score points but your fooling yourself if you think a good TKD person can't hurt or kill you.

Reply]
They are less brutal than the MMA guys.

>>You're right of course, Kungfu often teaches you killing maiming or breaking techniques. I have been to a few tourneys now where kungfu guys are out for injuries, same with grappling guys. IT might be happening more at kungfu tourneys but then is it technique or lack of control? Thos MMA guys train pretty hard. Alot harder sometimes then the kungfu guys!

Reply]
Probably less at Kung Fu tourneis as we don't allow ground fighting due to the fact our methods are so brutal. The MMA guys have it right by going for humane and non brutal submissions.

>>"Why don't you just ram your full body weight with your, knee point, into thier necks and bounce them repeatedly till they die? "

You answered this question yourself. They aren't in there to kill each other.

Reply]
See, MMA= Non Brutal

>> How many people from your school have been killed while practicing or sparring?

Reply]
None, we try to limit the brutality in practice for safety, just like everyone else. the difference is we actualy practice stratigies that use the brutal techniques. We train to LOOK to use them. MMA Ground systems look to IGNOR them in favore of pain compliance submissions.

In all seriousness, I'd rather fight Kerr than a properly trained Kung Fu guy (esecially if I've ****ed them off). With Kerr, I'm going to lose face and have to tap out, with the Kung Fu guy, by the time I know I'm in trouble I'm crippled for life if not dead or dying from my injuries.

[red5angel]

Royal Dragon, I think the issue might be that it sounds like you are saying that MMA guys can't be taken seriously because their training methods and goals might be different. For example -

"With Kerr, I'm going to lose face and have to tap out, with the Kung Fu guy, by the time I know I'm in trouble I'm crippled for life if not dead or dying from my injuries."

It sounds like you don't think this guy Kerr could do some real damage in a real fight?
I can tell you this, I wouldnt' want to scare anyone who has better or more training then me. Take a WWE wrestler for example. What they do isn't exactly martial as it is more acrobatic. But one of those guys get s****ed off, picks you up and drops you on your head in the street and it's over.
I'm not comparing WWE to MMA by any means. All I am saying is that while they may train for different things you can't argue it is necessarily less effective for it. Does that make sense? Am I way off here?

[Merryprankster]

Ok, lets try this again, MMA ground looks to submit, Kung Fu looks to Maim how much more simple can it get?

Are you being spectacularly obtuse on purpose or is it just coming naturally today?

MMA ground looks to BREAK, cause unconciousness via choke, or beat you senseless, whether through Ground n Pound or delivering bootstomps, knees, soccer kicks, elbows, etc. Tapping and referee's stoppage are our ways of ensuring that fighters are not injured too badly. It's a CONTEXT issue (sport vs street) vice a "deadliness" issue.

If I were to fight in the MMA, and slam a guy down on the mat,

Slams are legal in ALL MMA events.

and then do a full weighted knee drop on his ribs, maybe bounce on the injury a couple of times to make sure I killed him good, i'd be disqualified for intentionally trying to maim my opponent.

PRIDE rules:

Article 8
The following actions are deemed to be illegal. A fighter who commits these illegal actions hall be given a caution by the referee and such illegal action shall be a negative factor for decision. Third caution during the fight shall disqualify the fighter. The fighter shall be fined 10% of the fighting fee per caution payable to DSE.

Biting
Eye thumbing and eye gouging
Head butting
Attacking the groin
Pulling Hair
Pushing the windpipe with the thumb or finger (s) or squeezing the windpipe
Attacking the back of the head, the spine and/or the medulla (The back of the head is the centerline of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head.)
Using the elbows to attack the head or the face
Grabbing the ropes and refuse to release the ropes and/or hanging the limbs of the body (hand(s), arm(s), leg(s) or feet) over the rope intentionally. A fighter who places his upper arm over the rope shall be given a caution immediately.
Escaping to the outside of the ring
Throwing the opponent outside the ring
Stalling or failure to initiate any offensive or defensive attack. Making no attempt to finish or damage the opponent.

You'll note that dropping knees on your opponent is perfectly acceptable. Yes, elbows aren't allowed. You prefer elbows, the UFC allows them. I admit that some venues are more restrictive than these.

I won't bother responding the the rest of your (truly) assinine post. Suffice to say that you are taking it all out of its context. MMA groundfighting is designed to beat the daylights out of the opponent one way or another. Without a ref, without the rules, I can assure you that I am going to be breaking ****, if that's what it takes. You think I won't knee, elbow, attack the windpipe etc. if that's what it requires? Just because a fighter honors tapping, so you don't have broken body parts and they respect the refs authority doesn't mean that MMA groundfighting isn't brutal--it's brutal to CONTINUE with that lock, pounding or choke. Feel free not to tap--enjoy that broken knee and torn ligaments from the heel hook-be my guest.


KF groundfighting TOO BRUTAL for the ring? Classic excuse of wannabes, retards and chi hippies.

You used to make some really insightful posts. When did you turn into an idiot?

[weightvest]

no no no, kungfu always practises its lethal moves in class.

I myself have been killed several times. just last week someone pulled by heart out of my mouth and showed it to me before i collapsed.

luckily i have chi so i rebuilt a new heart.

[apoweyn]

Royal Dragon

Ok, lets try this again, MMA ground looks to submit, Kung Fu looks to Maim how much more simple can it get? it's a different mindset. If I were to fight in the MMA, and slam a guy down on the mat, and then do a full weighted knee drop on his ribs, maybe bounce on the injury a couple of times to make sure I killed him good, i'd be disqualified for intentionally trying to maim my opponent.

Then your entire emphasis and intent are focused on something you've never actually done. And probably never will.

...

Or have you killed someone before? Maimed someone?


Stuart B.

[Royal Dragon]

KF groundfighting TOO BRUTAL for the ring? Classic excuse of wannabes, retards and chi hippies.

Reply]
It is, we don't even allow it in our onw comps. If we did allow ground figting in our Comps, we'd use the less brutall MMA stuff.

You used to make some really insightful posts. When did you turn into an idiot?

Reply]
It's not that, it's I'm exposing cerian hypocrisis here (or trying to) So far only one guy got it.

MMA Is NOT brutal, it seeks to submitt. look at the list of rules you posted?? What are they for except to prevent fighters from brutalising eachother? You can't even elbow people in the head it's right in the rules you posted. You can't Slam people down, it's illegal. I mean, why are you arguing that MMA is so brutal anyway? You just posed a bunch of stuff proving my point.


red5angel]
Yes, you are probably right. The other part is I sort of wandred from my point a bit, which was to say that MMA ground fighting is NOT brutal. I never meant to emphasis Kung Fu's is (although it's true), nor did I want to compare the Stand up, only the Ground figthing, but I got a bit off track in a few posts.

But one of those guys get s****ed off, picks you up and drops you on your head in the street and it's over

See, THAT's brutal. You don't see MMA guys traing to do that stuff (it's against their rules). Kung Fu guys do. We just pull it enough to be safe. The difference between real, and training is really just the amount of effort. MMA guys don't look to do that kind of stuff, they look to mount and submitt, maybe pound a bit from a mount, but certianly not any sort of criplleling menuvers.

[Royal Dragon]

Then your entire emphasis and intent are focused on something you've never actually done. And probably never will.

Reply]
Hmmm, I'm not going to comment on the never done part, but lets just say if I was threatened, especially by a home invader, the guy would be pulling chuncks of his right rib out of his left lung. That's assuming Terri didn't shoot'em first.