Somethin i wrote up for anti-grapplin folks

[Mutant]

Good insights Brad, this was an interesting post.

While ring awareness is always important (or awareness of environment, whether its a crowded bar, alley, etc), it sounds like its paramount for a striker fighting a grappler. I also thought the 'striking nearest target of the shoot, changing target' example was excellent. You mentioned that leg kicks werent nessesarily good for stopping a grappler and that they might feed on them....What do you think a particularly effective kick is against a grappler looking for the shoot? Front stomp, round, side, other? All of the above and depends? mid section or going for the knockout head shot? ime, side and round kicks work best when cutting an angle after initial combo.

BTW, I think the discussion here digressed quickly away from the original topic here which was far more interesting... not to mention that the 'deadly eye and groin' argument holds no water as anyone could do that on the street if it came down to it... we're talking about training other complex and useful skillz here.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
MMA Ground fighting actually has and advantage by not being a Brutal discapline similar to Chin Na in Kung Fu because you can use it in sport venues and such, and you could never use real Kung Fu ground fighting as it pretty much precludes catastrophic injuries if you want it to work. With injuries like that pilling up MMA would soon be banned if Kung Fu Ground figting was actually done on any sort of scale.

In MMA, you have guys that over do it on occasion (As exapmled earlier in this thread), but on the whole, most people don't want to brutalise thier oppnents, so they go for stuff that does not leave any sort of long lasting permnant dammage. That's why you see knockouts, and the majority of fights ending in submissions as apppsed to most fights ending with criples going out on stretchers or in body bags.

Most fights end in submissions because when people are caught in a hold that will break their limbs if it is applied any more, they submit. This is quite evident in that just about all of the cases where someone refused to submit, they ended up broken.

This does not make MMA, the style (inasmuch as that even exists) 'less brutal' than kung fu. The same hold that gets a tap in the ring would get a break outside of it. Therefore, those moves are moves that break limbs. What do Kung Fu Chin Na do that is more brutal than breaking limbs?
The same series of strikes that gets a tap-out in the ring will eventually break someone's face outside of it, where a tap-out is not honored. What do Kung Fu strikes do that are more brutal than MMA strikes?

So far the /only/ example of something 'more brutal' than MMA striking is your vaunted knee drop. Which, despite your obtuseness, IS PERFECTLY LEGAL IN MMA. Guess what: it's hard to drop a knee on someone that's actively trying to get away, as people often are, even after you've slammed them. And since you can't train it full-contact, since it would cripple your training partner, I doubt you're going to be able to pull it off against a resisting opponent.

MP's right, you did used to post some reasonable things. Did someone take over your account, or did you just wake up retarded this morning?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[B]You people aren't getting this are you.



The street is not the issue here. And if it were, the LAST place you want to be is tied up un the concrete trying to "Submit" a guy. The Kung Fu Ground wold be more accurate, it's quick and eficient, and it keeps you on your feet so it's easier to deal wiht his reinforcments.

Are YOU so good that nobody can take you down? If so, then you should be competing - you would be very rich. If YOU agree that you can be taken down, then you had better know what to do once you get there.



I don't know, have not seen too many fights stopped due to injury. It does happen, but most end in a submission where the loser just tapps out. Infact that's the most common occurance.

1. you don't train mma or bjj
2. you don't compete
3. you don't watch many competitions

in addition to submitting from locks, people also submit from strikes. PLENTY of people have been pounded to a pulp. As far as pain compliance, that's not the issue. If you don't tap, you WILL have a broken limb. that simple. Even in practice, because if you don't tap, the guy you are rolling with thinks he can keep going - and he will.

It's irrelevant to the argument. MMA's Ground fighting is not brutal, it's a humane way of figthing in the ring designed to minimise dammage. Kung Fu ground fighting is designed to maim asap and is considerably more brutal than MMA's Ground which is desgned to force a submission. Infatc, we don't even use it in our own tournies, for that very reason.

but you can use it in ours. And who has yet to do it?. Exactly.


Training styles are irrelevant to the argument as it does not address the general design and intent of the systems. MMA uses a much more humane ground system based on *Pain* compliance and fear of injury to force submissions. Kung Fu's ground just breaks an opponent as much as possible with little considerationfor the opponents well being. MMA Ground seeks to make the opponent *Give Up*, Kung Fu Ground seeks to cripple them so they can't continue on even if they wanted to.

1. that's an ignorant statement.
2. mma is not ground based, grappling is.
3. regardless of how humane it looks, do you honestly believe that those locks have to be applied slowly enough to give someone a chance to tap? we can break a limb just as fast as you can eye gouge or knee drop someone... and probably more efficiently.

[Merryprankster]

Yes, Ground and POUND, into submission or KO, not ground and smash & Pound his face till he's not capable of fighting back because he's too dam injured to do so.

Idiot. You're talking about the difference between sport/kwoon and street. Not the PURPOSE of MMA groundfighting. You're under the impression that everybody trains MMA to compete. Many do. But many do not.

FatherDog has caught the correct.

Mutant--I find that roundkicks leave you vulnerable to a follow up takedown. I'm always ready to sprawl when I'm done!

[Brad Souders]

Mutant was up bro. Long time no talk. Hows the san shou going? Hope training is going well.

I have to leave for work right now but will answer your questions tonight with my thoughts though some will disagree.

So royal if u miss the dropping knee to the ribs then the fight is on the ground? Geesh when are u street guys gonna realize the ground is not the safiest place to be in a fight. Why take it to the ground when hte concrete awaits.

later,
Brad "anti all martial arts only believes in reality" Souders

[Royal Dragon]

It's the mind set, MMA TRAINES to submit, not maim, thearfore it's not brutal.

MP's right, you did used to post some reasonable things. Did someone take over your account, or did you just wake up retarded this morning?

Reply]
All I said was MMA is not geard to be really brutal, specifically it's ground fighting. The goal is to submit, not Kill or Maim, what's not reasonable about that? Is it the fact that you somehow feel diminished because you feel being seen as brutal is important to you?

Most fights end in submissions because when people are caught in a hold that will break their limbs if it is applied any more, they submit

Reply]
See, they stop and submit, You don't actully HAVE the brutality, it allways stops short. Generally there is no catastropic injury that will affect them for any great period of time. MMA is also played on a mat, so the effect of the "Slam" is greatly dimminshed too, thus removing yet another avenue of brutality.

How often out of all MMA Comps do you see anyone carried out on a stretcher with the medics feaverishly working to save them?

Face it, Most MMA gyms TRAIN to get a submission, NOT train to Kill or Maim. The idea is to humanly test eachother skills, NOT crippple people. Everyone has the wrong idea here. They think MMA is this ultra brutal, no holds barred, bare knuckle "Pit" fight, and it's really not brutal at all. If it was, noone would bother with the submission, they'd just break stuff without even a second thought.

[norther practitioner]

I'm always ready to sprawl when I'm done!

Duh! (slaps self on head) thanks!

speaking of which, how often do you guys practice takedowns, counters, and sprawling?

[ewallace]

It's the mind set, MMA TRAINES to submit, not maim, thearfore it's not brutal.

It's the mind set, CMA TRAINES to pull back, not maim, thearfore it's not brutal.

[Royal Dragon]

So royal if u miss the dropping knee to the ribs then the fight is on the ground? Geesh when are u street guys gonna realize the ground is not the safiest place to be in a fight. Why take it to the ground when hte concrete awaits.

Reply the chances of that are slim, but if it does mess up, it will mostlkly be becasue you didn't let yourself fall into it. All you have to do is just stand up, and step back. Or follow the momentum and dive over him, roll and bounce back up to your feet. The idea is to take THEM down and out, but keep on your own feet at the same time.

Unless your a dolt, and just hang there, then they will grab your leg roll you over and submitt you MMA style

[ewallace]

This is like me sitting at my computer wearing only pink underwear telling people how they shouldn't wear only pink underwear.

[Royal Dragon]

It's the mind set, CMA TRAINES to pull back, not maim, thearfore it's not brutal.

Reply]
TALLY HO!!! You got it!!!

ewallace,

[red5angel]

ewallace has a point RD, he shouldn't tell anyone not to wear pink underwear....



RD - here is the thing. When you train, are you ACTUALLY killing or maiming anyone? I understand you might percieve your mental intent as being different but what is the reality in the way you train?
In grappling, you are correct in saying their intent is to get the submission. But this is by applying holds that can maim or break. There isn't much of a difference between what they are doing when they train and what you are doing. You both stop out of necessity and civility.
Now although you aren't killing or maiming your training partners, if you were to encounter someone who is trying to really harm you, you would adjust your attitude slightly and go for a maim/break/kill. Why can't a grappler do the same?

[ewallace]

you could never use real Kung Fu ground fighting as it pretty much precludes catastrophic injuries if you want it to work. With injuries like that pilling up MMA would soon be banned if Kung Fu Ground figting was actually done on any sort of scale.

I must have missed that the first time around. That's absolutely hilarious. I'm sure some folks would have a blast with that on one of the mma forums.

[ewallace]

you would adjust your attitude slightly and go for a maim/break/kill. Why can't a grappler do the same?

Because it's not chinese.

[Royal Dragon]

Why can't a grappler do the same?

Reply]
They can, if they did they'd be Brutal!