Versus Kicks - opinions ?

[Ernie]

good question ,
i'm not good at initiating a kick i'm better at intercepting motion, so know i wouldn't i would use my foot work and control distance leaving me with more options .

[Andrew Williams]

Hi King Monkey.

Just some clarification on your question. Are you talking about starting the fight at a measured distnace, by that I mean, are you and the kicker squared up, you adopting a WC stance, he a what-ever stance, ready to have a crack at one-another? Where is his kick aimed? Is he moving to you, you to him, or both on the hop?

Regards Andrew W.

[KingMonkey]

Ernie

Now I understand a little better. I was thinking of the starting point being WC guy in IRAS rather than one foot forward.......... I imagine that with 50/50 weight distribution or 30/70 you could combine a move forward with a bong as the lead right transitions to being the supporting leg. I will try this with one of my classmates. I'm guessing being the guy getting bonged must get real old real quick though :-)


Andrew

Hi.

are you and the kicker squared up, you adopting a WC stance, he a what-ever stance, ready to have a crack at one-another?

Yes

Where is his kick aimed?

Could be roundhouse or straight, could be knees, ribs or even head. The fact that using the bong and yup need you to more accurately track the incoming kick is one of the things that bothers me and sparked the original question.

Is he moving to you, you to him, or both on the hop?

He closes to kicking range

I posed this question because I had been practising bong or yup gerk against this and hated it when compared to the solution I'm more familiar with which is move aggressively forward at the first sign of a twitch using gaan or gwat against the leg and circle step with punches.

[OdderMensch]

kingmonkey
that will work for a higher kick, to the ribs or head, and is often taught in conjunction with the use of a chi gerk movement. i see it as this, once the attacker is in kicking range the WC fighter should be in moton, towards the opponent ideally, and should be rooted in the rear leg.

should a kick begin as the WC fighter moves forward, it should cross the line of the forward leg, or that space should be eaten by the WCer's step. should the kicker be so far away that the kick can be seen, the front leg should rise into the 'dok lop ma' or single leg stance, then use the chi gerk skills to determine what action the leg undertakes. should it come low, the leg should feel what side it is on, and respond in the same manner that a bridge arm responds, most likely with bong, or tan.

should the leg come high, the arms should be in place already and the leg can be used t position the fighter to a better angle or counterattack.

Sound ok so far?

[Andrew Williams]

Hi Monkey King

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are you and the kicker squared up, you adopting a WC stance, he a what-ever stance, ready to have a crack at one-another? aw

Yes. mk

I ask this because in my experience it is an extremely rare occurrence that a fight will start this way (at kicking distance) or that once punching distance or grappling distance is reached that the fight will then go to kicking distance again. Likewise I am not altogether sure that many fighters (real fighters in real fighting) kick above their own umbilical line (and this rarer today than the recent past) , that is unless they are messing about with the incompetent. aw
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Where is his kick aimed? aw

Could be roundhouse or straight, could be knees, ribs or even head. The fact that using the bong and yup need you to more accurately track the incoming kick is one of the things that bothers me and sparked the original question. mk

I agree with the idea that a powerful kick will destroy these structures (as mentioned earlier by you), if the defender is static. And that the price for accuracy on the part of the defender requires that a high price may need be paid. This is a point proved repeatedly to me whilst training with people who have truly strong kicking (and punching) abilities. At the very least the control of COG will be challenged, therefore the balance and stabilising mechanisms will then have to be employed keeping you upright, rather than be applied aggressively.

Likewise, when mobile the application of any action designed to deflect or check the incoming limb tends to mean that much energy and/or time (relative to the fight time) is spent on the kick when it might best be employed in attacking the opponent directly

However, as easy as it is to suggest that kicking distance is finite, and is a range that can be easily controlled, we should not forget that there are many kickers who are aware of how to maintain, whether pre-fight or whilst actually fighting, their preferred distance. These guys are dangerous, as it usually means that they require only a small window of opportunity to inflict maximum damage, unlike the average dojo dueller or the compliant WC partner. I have also found that the kick is rarely applied in isolation, that it is usually part of a combination and what follows is often more dangerous than the kick. It may also be that the kick is a diversion, that you are being asked a question, the trend in WC seems to be to answer that question somewhat predicably.... aw
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Is he moving to you, you to him, or both on the hop? aw

He closes to kicking range. mk

I posed this question because I had been practising bong or yup gerk against this and hated it when compared to the solution I'm more familiar with which is move aggressively forward at the first sign of a twitch using gaan or gwat against the leg and circle step with punches. Mk

I am with you. Negate the kick by not being at a distance where the kick can be applied optimally, attack the kicker. This done by any means. Train this diligently. It is a tactic not a technique, it is nonetheless an applicable one. aw

Regards Andrew W.

[KingMonkey]

Odder and Andrew,

Thanks for the replies guys. This has been a very useful thread for me.

To sum up my what I'm taking away from it..........


I was right to be worried and doubtful about the efficacy of a static bong/yup gerk defense.

Aggressive intent is the key with yup and bong gerk as with the hands.

I need to work on my stability a little more to make these work for me :-)

[Bui-Jee-D]

Personally I believe its the way that chi gerk is taught. The bong gerk is actually a very effective techniqe to stop the round house kick and the hook kicks.
In the school which I attend, we also have several black belts from different arts. For example, we've built into our curriculum a good deal of karate stuff and aikido stuff. It's always good to have a respectful appreciation of the artforms and how to deal with different styles from a WC perspective.
More to your point, you shoiuld never find yourself standing still feeling like a target. Good chi gerk techniques go hand in hand with good diagonal, forward and backward stepping techniques. Knowing how to heun ma correctly, with good balance and solid structure coupled with correct timing (which is obtained through years of training, especially on the Jong to learn distance).
Encountering as solid kicker as a WC artist, you must first gauge your safe and unsafe distances...for example, never be at the end of your kicker's feet, always be inside the range so you can move, like huen man inwards towards his center and quickly jam him with a bong gerk before he gets a chance to move in.
Simply standing and waiting for the kick to come, THEN, responding will leave even the most fluent WC artists in some trouble.
Remember, as WC artists we WANT to be up-close and personal. Either be outside a kicker's legs, or inside so he can't load up. Also, a good kicker will have the mechanics as such so that when he steps in, you won't be able to tell if you are getting a side kick, hook kick, crescent kick combination of these because the loading mechanics are the same. Look for the visual cues, then heun ma off center, then back on his center and drive right through him.
Imagine yourself in relation to the kicker in concentric circles. The kicker, wants you away from him so he can step in so he needs to be more than arms reach away. General rule, add about a foot to what you think arms lenght of your attacker is and that is where his feet will reach. If you close that gap, you take away his ability to load and that is when bong gerk, tan gerk, or gan gerk work beautifully.