OT: Bush admits using bad intel in State of Union

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by chen zhen
So, what is worse lying about: The reason for going to war with thousands of casualties & the destroying of a whole nation; or about getting B-jobs in the oval office...?

Whatever you do, please don't use this line of argument. The war and Bush's conduct are two different things which should each stand or fall on their own merit. This line of manipulation is the same one used by the government with the idea of creating an intractable connection between support for the war, and support for your country. It's an "all or nothing, us against them" kind of viewpoint which attempts to use people's emotional responses on one issue to control their opinions on another one. Surely this is repugnant?

[chen zhen]

Sorry. I realised it would bring me down at some point.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by chen zhen
What would make Iraq that important, that a President of the most powerful country in the world would stand up and downright lie to to the rest of the world..?

In what way is "to end the Baathist regime" an unreasonable answer to the question of "why military intervention in Iraq"? From Bush's POV, I mean.

[Marky]

I have no love for Bush, but if a Democrat gets in office in '04, I won't be able to stay in the country. I make $75,000 a year, and according to the Democrats, that makes me one of the "rich Americans" who should pay more taxes than anyone else.

But I might be turned around about the whole thing if a Democrat actually presents a policy other than "I don't like Bush".

As far as the State of the Union Address, I DOUBT Bush would have lied because he would have too much to lose. And there would be NO WAY to constrict the knowledge that he lied to those who like Bush. If even one person knew (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that Bush lied, it would be crucifixion time at that person's discretion.

But then again, Bush is a politician, and by the very definition of the word, he would lie if he thought he could get away with it. Actually, with $15 billion going directly to corrupt African governments (although I know it's being spent with good intentions, I doubt a single deserving person will see a piece of that dough), I'm starting to wonder if he lied about being a Republican!

[norther practitioner]

The Democrats (I'm slightly left of center) have stuck there dam foots in there mouths so many times in the last two and a half years it is discusting.... I don't like the republicans too much right now either but that is a different story. I haven't seen anything too impressive as of yet for the 2004 race.

[African Tiger]

Still waiting for the new and improved KFO, where political posts are moved to another forum entirely...

[Vapour]

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/07/09...eld_Iraq030709

Oh well, go figure.

[Vash]

**** the Republicans. **** the Democrats. in fact, why not just **** all the ****ing independents, too.

Were I king of This Great Nation (like I should be), then I would scrap this crap, call us the Big Brother Network, and bomb every ****ing country that looked at us cross-eyed.

Oh, I'm tired of politics. I think I've read one too many articles with Rumsfeld's amazingly poetic butchery of the American language ('cuz there ain't no way in heck that's English).

[Merryprankster]

African Tiger has caught the Anal Retentive!

Actually, I've been saying we need an OT forum for awhile.

[chen zhen]

Why don't you Americans just found some more parties! U might as well be a one-party state right now, cos' you're screwed whatever u vote.

More parties, man! And not sum "green party", or the "nazi-party"(those are the other ones u have?)

U should learn from european countries. (preferably western, not eastern )

[Merryprankster]

And you should learn that social democracy is not sustainable

Anyway, the two-party system has evolved because of the way votes are tallied and the division between the executive and legislative branches. There has rarely been a viable 3rd party in U.S. history.

Chen Zhen, there are significant differences between the Democrat and Republican parties--on the whole. Mileage may vary from candidate to candidate.

[chen zhen]

U have to change your voting-system, it's one of the most f*cked in the world (except for Iraq, lol).

And the candidates of both parties are bound by those they have loaned campaign-money from, so they have to follow a policy that those contributors to a certain extent chooses. How f*cked is that?

& I can go on and on. The fall of the Social Democratic parties in many european countries, is partly because of immigrant-problems, that have made the voters turn more to the right. And it has screwed a lot of things up. I talk mostly on the behalf of Denmark, but others have problems too, Berlusconi being a good example.

[Merryprankster]

Chen Zhen:

Why is our voting system f-ed up?

Why is, say, Germany or Denmark's way any better?

I'm not big on unsubstantiated claims. Tell me why. I mean, you could be right, but I'd like to know why you think you're right.

I will agree that it would be nice if we could eliminate the money issue, but campaign donations are protected under political free speech--a basic tenet philosophy in our system and one that is unlikely to go away.

"Immigrant Problems?" I thought Europe was so much more tolerant than the U.S.? Guess those Belgian protests/riots some months ago say otherwise, eh?

[Chang Style Novice]

MP - Well, for one thing, proportional representation would have prevented the huge redistricting battle currently going on here in Texas! I also am of the opinion that P.R. and the attendant plethora of viable parties would mean the views of the populace are better represented in the legislatures.

[chen zhen]

MP: actually, I can't say why. i'll take my statement back...

Racism and populist parties are gaining in population in Europe. Especially in France, Holland, Denmark (not yay) and England. It is really f*cked up. Denmark is a small country, so the racism bubbles up to the surface when just small problems arises (we just like to be ourselves, without interference, apparently), there's only 3-5% immigrants, approximally 300-400.000, while France has 12.000.000 (out of a pop. on 50.000.000) or more immigrants, and criminality is much worse in urban areas there. Le Pen gained more votes at the last election, if u heard (or does the ignorant americans don't know that either?)