What is the best way to deal with someone who has a knife pointed real close to your neck?

[JWTAYLOR]

Check out my new topic under the Kung Fu section about the new article in Black Belt.

JWT

[obiwan]

Well assuming that you've been reasonable and that you've tried to surrender, if you think he's really going to cut your throat anyway....

I would turn my neck, so that the front of my throat doesnt get cut, but not enough to expose the jugular. That way, it's harder to cut into your wind pipe, and if he does cut through, you can use your shoulder to support your head.

At the same time, grab the knife and hold onto it as hard as you can. It will cut deep into your hand and will affect reflexes and movement in your hand for the rest of your life. (Hope your not a surgeon.)

But as long as the blade doesnt slide, then it can't cut you. This is how all those "standing on swords work".

Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off.

Once you have control of the blade, take him out.

THIS obviously is to save your life, not hero movie stuff. Only when you feel you are dead anyway, cos your hand will be REALLY F'd up afterwards.

Hope you never need it.

The Force will be with you...always

[JerryLove]

"I would turn my neck, so that the front of my throat doesnt get cut, but not enough to expose the jugular."

That is an awfully high precision to hope to have.

"That way, it's harder to cut into your wind pipe, and if he does cut through, you can use your shoulder to support your head."

You think you can loose enough muscle tissue that your neck doesn't work and your biggest worry is "holding up your head"? This would imply to me that you haven't researched this subject.

"At the same time, grab the knife and hold onto it as hard as you can."

Jumping to the conclusion that you han grab that dead-on and successfully (and without skewering yourself), which I think is a patently false conclusion.... You are now holding a tapering blade, he his holding a handle, and the two of you are playing tug-of-war. It's pathetically easy for him to free his knife.

" It will cut deep into your hand and will affect reflexes and movement in your hand for the rest of your life. (Hope your not a surgeon.)"

The perminancy of any damage is impossible to gague.

"But as long as the blade doesnt slide, then it can't cut you. This is how all those "standing on swords work".

Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off."

So it's impossible to push a knife point into someone because of this?

Sorry, I think this is all very poor advice.

[ATENG]

goodness...some of you might be in for a rude awakening.

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[rovere]

I have produced a video (Lesson 3 in the Chinses Commando series) on knife defense that covers several of these situations. you can check out the infor at www.rovere.com.

[JerryLove]

1) I'd love to be pointed to independant sites that could verify the claims made on the site.

2) Proper knife defense for a soldier in BDU and gear is not the same as knife defense for a civillian.

3) This doesn't answer the topic posed. It just sells a video. You made a video? Fine. What is the knife defense from the video for the situation described?

[rovere]

Sorry if I offended you. The video does deal with this question in a civilian context. And they aren't much different than the military versions.

The key to the defenses--whether the knife is to your throat-- opponent facing you or from behind with knife around your throat has to do with utilizing rotational force and bringing the elbows close to the body. Never try to pull the knife directly away from you (or kick or turn your head etc.) If the knife is in front the rotational force of your arms will redirect the blade back towards the attacker. If the knife is around the throat from behind, the rotational action will rotate the edge of the blade away from your throat . Position of your arms will cause the attacker to loose leverage. Without actually seeing what I am describing it's difficult to explain the counter but suffice it to say that some of them result in redirecting the blade into the attacker; dislocating his arm or disarm.

As for the comment about whether the material on my site is real or not. I've been through this before on another forum-- so I'm not going to bother to repeat it. I think there is enough references there you can get the picture. Let's just say because you haven't accomplished much in your life doesn't mean the rest of us wasted our time.

I suppose you could start by talking to Adam Hsu. He can verify who my teachers were. You can talk to David Cater at Inside Kung Fu magazine. I'll give you more if you're so inclined but I'd rather not waste too many people's time.

[This message was edited by rovere on 11-26-00 at 08:25 PM.]

[JerryLove]

"Sorry if I offended you."

I'm not offended, just disgruntled. Many people love to chime in with either "My art does it" or "Buy my video" rather than answer the question at hand. This is exactly what your last post did.

"The video does deal with this question in a civilian context."

Great! The site you referenced did not seem to have material geared at average people, they seemed geared at millitary, law enforcement, and provate security.

"And they aren't much different than the military versions."

You feel a 60-year-old woman should work the same material as a 24-yer-old man? Don't you think a millitary counter-knife technique is morelikely to be geared at 1) clearing the field of fire for his buddy to shoot the assailent 2) gaining distance to use his firearm or 3) gaining position to pull his own blade? This is less likely in an attack on a civillian as he is less likely to be armed.

Further, an infantry man is probibly in good physical shape, and can rely more on strength-oriented technique than an unknown civillian.

"Let's just say because you haven't accomplished much in your life doesn't mean the rest of us wasted our time."

That's just presumptious (and rather testy, one might think I struck a proverbial nerve)

"I think there is enough references there you can get the picture."

It's not the list... It's validating the list.

"I suppose you could start by talking to Adam Hsu."

Sounds like a start. Though since I don't know who that is, I don't know how much credence to place on what he says. Where can I contact him at?

"You can talk to David Cater at Inside Kung Fu magazine"

Having been involved with the article submission process at IKF, I have little faith in their checking process (they have none). Or does this person have personal experience with you and your training?

I'll discuss your actual suggestion (the real topic) in the next post.

[JerryLove]

"The key to the defenses--whether the knife is to your throat-- opponent facing you or from behind with knife around your throat has to do with utilizing rotational force and bringing the elbows close to the body."

Do you mean your opponent's elbows or your own? And to who's body (I presume your opponent's elbow you your body, but since this is different from my approach, I am not sure).

"Never try to pull the knife directly away from you (or kick or turn your head etc.)"

If the knife is already part way in, you will have to pull straight out or risk cutting your own artiery. If the person has his elbows to his sides so the knife is held just below his own throat pointing out, you will not be able to manipulate his elbows or rotate the knife, your options become overpower him away or change your angle to him. There are other instances where kicking or pushing the knife directly away become the most prefererable counters.

"If the knife is in front the rotational force of your arms will redirect the blade back towards the attacker."

I am a little confused by the position you are describing and the elbow manipulation you have in mind. Do you mean if the attacker is in front of you?

"If the knife is around the throat from behind, the rotational action will rotate the edge of the blade away from your throat."

OK, I *really* can't imagine this one. The position of your elbow is not going to rotate the knife so I have to assume you are moving his. Now assuming the knife is across the left side of your throat, anywhere from in front of your voicebox to across your carotid airtery. And assuming his elbow is beside your right shoulder (as if hes started a rear naked choke to get the knife there), how would you manuver his albow to leverage-rotate the knife?

You could pull the elbow toward your neck (my suggestion if the knife isn't directly in front). This would move the knife directly away from your thoat and using your other hand to push the knife backwards would put it in his face (while putting you in a rear naked choke).

You could pull the elbow down toward your chest. This might force him to bend his wrist, but would not reposition the blade.

The other two directions are up or away, but those would not work well (that I can see) and are not fitting with bringing elbows in to make rotational force.

"Position of your arms will cause the attacker to loose leverage. Without actually seeing what I am describing it's difficult to explain the counter but suffice it to say that some of them result in redirecting the blade into the attacker;"

The blade is already pointed at the attacker in most rear knife holds, it's just your neck is inbetween him and it. Do you mean pointing the tip at the attacker? Or are you thinking of some other hold?

"dislocating his arm or disarm."

We appear to be thinking of two different things. Care to post a picture of the starting position and maybe one intermediate position?

[rovere]

The approach I was discussing has to do with mechanical efficiency not necessarily physical strength. i.e. roll elbows not pull. As for the 60 year old woman. If she can maximize her mechanical efficiency she has a better chance of successfully executing a technique than using a strength based technique.

I didn't think the question posed had anything to do with your partner shooting the assailant-- but I suppose that is a viable option.

You can find Adam Hsu on the Internet. I'm surprised that you haven't heard of him since this is a kung fu forum. He is quite well known and respected teacher in US, Taiwan and Mainland China. His teacher taught the Taiwanese 'dark suits' (Chiang Kai-Shek's bodyguards/secret service). David Cater has not trained with me. The articles they published should be on my site. Why did they not publish your article? I've had one refused for not being politically correct -- but usually they are quite receptive.

As for disgruntled, nothing I can do about it. Testy yes I guess so since your comments seem to arise from a personal problem with me. I'm curious with whom and what do you train? The last time someone tried this with me they ended up advertising their own web site and videos. Ulterior motive?

The 'list' also has references, photos and comments by various persons-- including military personnel. With some leg work I'm sure you can verify this. If you need help I have all of the letters on file. I can't publish everything on the site. I guess you now know why our consulting business is geared towards professionals and not the general public. At least they pay me if they waste my time.

[rovere]

Give me your mailing address and I'll send you the video. My compliments.

The elbow rotation is your elbows being rotated towards your body-- approx. waist height. Your hands will be moving away from your throat when this occurs (Opponent has knife around your throat from behind). Of course you must grasp his arm--ideally as close to his wrist as possible -- but in real life 'beggars can't be choosers'. His blade rotates with your hand movement-- like when you drag the blade along your face when shaving. As long as the blade does not slide back and forth (parallel to edge of blade) it won't cut. Additionally, since his arm is over your shoulder (like in a rear choke position) he now has to support your body weight from a mechanically inefficient position.

If knife point is at your throat--opponent in front -- hold his hand, apply pressure (against the direction of the knife) to his hand to create resistance and again rotate your elbows back to your body. This causes the knife point to ratate away from your throat and towards him.

The idea is to use the mechanical efficiency of the body (weight; moment; rotational force; elbow position) to redirect and control/stabilize the blade.)

Where did the knife being part ways in come from? Again, if you can get the blade to rotate it reduces the likelihood of your being cut. Pulling straighta against the arm puts you in a tug-of-war position and the blade could snap back to you.

Is that clearer?

[This message was edited by rovere on 11-26-00 at 09:36 PM.]

[obiwan]

Jerry Love

"I would turn my neck, so that the front of my throat doesnt get cut, but not enough to expose the jugular."
That is an awfully high precision to hope to have.

It's turning your head, anyone can do it. Like when you say "no"

"That way, it's harder to cut into your wind pipe, and if he does cut through, you can use your shoulder to support your head."

You think you can loose enough muscle tissue that your neck doesn't work and your biggest worry is "holding up your head"? This would imply to me that you haven't researched this subject.

Support your head on your shoulder, there by reducing the blood loss. Ie. Contracting a gash on your neck by pressing it against your shoulder. (Of course if it's too high, that's different, but they've not been specific.)

"At the same time, grab the knife and hold onto it as hard as you can."

Jumping to the conclusion that you han grab that dead-on and successfully (and without skewering yourself), which I think is a patently false conclusion.... You are now holding a tapering blade, he his holding a handle, and the two of you are playing tug-of-war. It's pathetically easy for him to free his knife.


You don't have to be dead on, just grab it and hold on to it for life. (You wouldn't be doing it otherwise.) You are not going for a precision cut, you want to catch the blade on the muscle tissue of your hand. The damage will cause blood to flow, but this creates a suction effect in the flesh, making it difficult to inflict further damage.

IT IS NOT EASY TO PULL A KNIFE OUT OF DEEP FLESH!
This is why large blades have blood canals. The suction from the flesh around creates a powerful force. EG. stab someone with a bayonet, then put foot on chest to help pull the bayonet out!
Muscles contract as an automatic reaction to damage. Imagine sticking a blade into muscle tissue, then ALL the muscle tissue tightens up 10 times harder than a cramp, and then you tell me how easy it is to pull out.

If you hold it lightly, of course it will come out. That is why you have to hold so tight that it goes to the bone.

" It will cut deep into your hand and will affect reflexes and movement in your hand for the rest of your life. (Hope your not a surgeon.)"

The perminancy of any damage is impossible to gague.

If it cuts to the bone, it cuts nerves. (The cut will be this deep) therefore permanancy of damage is assured. Degree of damage is a different question.

"But as long as the blade doesnt slide, then it can't cut you. This is how all those "standing on swords work".

Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off."

So it's impossible to push a knife point into someone because of this?

If there is ABSOLUTELY NO MOVEMENT other than a perpendicular force, it will reduce the damage of the knife. notice: "it wont cut your hand OFF"
The sharpness of the blade is negated and instead, only force of the hit will be effective.

You may say, "so what?!" but the sharpness of the blade inflicts significantly more than the force behind the blade, otherwise we'd all by using clubs!

I didn't sat it wouldnt cut your hand, i said it wouldnt cut it off! IE. you stop it sawing through your bone!

Sorry, I think this is all very poor advice.

Think again.

Read more carefully next time and do some real research. I understand about the neck muscle, I was a little vague, but the rest will work. Just because you break boards, doesnt mean you break the laws of physics.

The force behind the blade is not the same as the sharpness of the blade. They are two separate forces.

The Force will be with you...always

[JerryLove]

I am all for mechanical efficiency, but I feel that one needs to discuss other options at time. For example, with a health adult male, I can show escapes that offer some, but little, mechanical leverage. These may be preferrable escapes to high-leverage ones for a slew of reasons including simplicity, length, or other factors. When teaching the millitary or securty, these attributes can be assumed. When teaching a wider assortment of civillians, one may be forced to rely more on the leverage techniques you suggest.

I may indeed look up Adam Hsu, thank you for the information. I am not very familiar with quite a few liniages. My martial exposure is defines by the people I meet, the people I study under, and the people I interact with online. I tend not to think much of people outside that unless they have published work that has interested me.

The article I was involved with was published in IKF.

I'm sorry you feel I have a personal problem with you, I don't. As I said, I am irked by people who respond to a question with an ad. Your site seemd self-egrandizing (hope I'm using that right [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] ) and to not cover the question either (though you have since corrected that the knife video is geared toward civillians).

I will not be advertising for myself as I have nothing to advertise (and that would make me a rather large hippocrate). Since the cancer I am not even teaching anymore (though with luck, I will be again in about a year).

I'll take another look through the support on your site, rather than make you repeat info that may already be there.

[JerryLove]

Yes, that makes more sense. Thank you. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Your offer of a video is very generous, I think I'll take you up on it if you don't mind. If your email is in your profile I send you my address that way. I look forward to seeing it.

[JerryLove]

JL - "That is an awfully high precision to hope to have."

Obi - "It's turning your head, anyone can do it. Like when you say "no""

I;m just concerned about turning it the right amount so neither the jugular/carotid or larnyx is exposed to the blade (which you cannot see). *That* seems to require more precision than I am comfortable banking my life on.

[snip]

Thanks for the clarificaton.

Obi - "You don't have to be dead on, just grab it and hold on to it for life."

That seems to me to require that you be dead on. If you ar not, you either miss entirely or skewer your handon the blade.

Obi - "IT IS NOT EASY TO PULL A KNIFE OUT OF DEEP FLESH!"

I believe you, but there is a tremendous amount of force that the knife wielder can apply. The foot-on-the-chest is to keep the chest down as much as anything. Also, I don't think a slice on the inside of a hand is similar to a knife imbedded in a hunk of muscle, but I admit I have never tried this on a living creature. Do you have any experience (personal or not) with this being done?

Obi - "Imagine sticking a blade into muscle tissue, then ALL the muscle tissue tightens up 10 times harder than a cramp, and then you tell me how easy it is to pull out."

Never tried it. I did see that hospital show that TLC shows late at night a few days ago. They were in a British hospital. There was a kid (early twenties so not a kid I guess) that came in. He had lost about 20% of his blood volume to deep lacerations (expically one in his upper leg) where someone had plunged a knife in and pulled it out again repeatedly. So this is quite possible.

"If you hold it lightly, of course it will come out. That is why you have to hold so tight that it goes to the bone."

If I use a knife to cut the entire width of a muscle (like in the fingers or hand) and cut it all the way through (to the bone) and the muscle reacts by contracting.... That would cause the two halves of the muscle to move away from the knife, not squeeze in around it.

"If it cuts to the bone, it cuts nerves. (The cut will be this deep) therefore permanancy of damage is assured. Degree of damage is a different question."

Degree of damage in the instance you describe is the severing of all muscles involved on the inside of the hand. But since these muscles can be sewen back together and nerve tissue can reform, permenancy is unknown.

Obi - "Pure physics. Force has no effect in the perpendicular direction. Therefore, if you stop the blade sliding, it wont cut your hand off."

JL - "So it's impossible to push a knife point into someone because of this?"

Obi - "If there is ABSOLUTELY NO MOVEMENT other than a perpendicular force, it will reduce the damage of the knife. notice: "it wont cut your hand OFF"

Yes, you also said "no effect". Is it *no* effect or *less* effect. The latter I agree with because the lateral motion of the blade (even a non-serrated one) has a sawing action that is more effective than simple pressure.

Obi - "The sharpness of the blade is negated and instead, only force of the hit will be effective."

Perhaps I am mis-reading but that seems to say that I could push a bat through you (dull) as easily as a knife (sharp) because "The sharpness of the blade is negated" and I know this to not be true.

JL - "Sorry, I think this is all very poor advice."

Obi - "Think again."

OK. I think your basic premise that someone is likely to be able to retain a knife being wielded against them by an attacker by holding on to it's blade is false. Since all of the technique you describe hinges around that being true, I think your technique cannot be relied upon to a reasonable standard.

Obi - "The force behind the blade is not the same as the sharpness of the blade. They are two separate forces."

Agreed, Sharpness isn't a force at all, but a property. Kinda like why an arrow (sharp) does more damage than a bean bag (dull) when it hits you at high speed (and in a perpendicular manner I might add).

And if you think it's a force thing. A riot shot-gun firing bean-bags fires them with far more force than a 30lb bow fires an arrow. And the bags are heavier. The arrow will penetrate flesh, the bean bag will only bruise.