What is the best way to deal with someone who has a knife pointed real close to your neck?

[JerryLove]

And if you cannot trust MrLardball,who can you trust?

[Knifefighter]

Obiwan & Jerry:
You guys are actually getting close. Keep working on it. Once you get the answer, you will be amazed at how easy it is to make it work.

[Knifefighter]

Mr. Lardball:
I agree with you that theatrical blade work is not much like real blade fighting. By the same token, fencing is not knife fighting. Nor is it realistic sword combat.

[TaoBoxer]

My first answer is don't let the knife get that close, but if it does........

If someone is going to cut your throat the best thing to do it to EXPOSE your throat by lifting your chin. This is the classic horror movie/commando pose when the hair has been pulled back to expose the throat. What happens is the Carotid Artery and the Jugular Vein actually RECEED deeper into the structure of your neck and it makes them less likely to be severed.

strange but true......


Bill, the Kung Fu Medic

[JerryLove]

How much deeper do they move? How deep is the average throat cut?

[Knifefighter]

The best thing to do is expose your neck? I THINK NOT. The arteries may be pulled backwards somewhat, but not enough to make much of a difference when a blade is slicing into the neck. Not to mention the fact that you have now increased the exposure of your esophagus to being punctured. What you want to do is drop your chin down and to the side of the knife. This makes it much more likely that you will be cut in your chin/jaw rather than into the vital arteries of the neck.

You can prove this to yourself. Let a judo or jiu jitsu practitioner apply a cross collar choke on you. Raise your head up before he secures the choke. The carotid arteries are still close enough to the surface to be pinched off and cause you to lose consciousness if he does not stop. Next drop your chin down before he secures the choke. The chances are that he will not be able to choke you because all of his force will be applied to your chin rather than your neck.

Here’s a drill on surviving knife attacks to the neck. Get a partner with a rubber knife. Have him go for neck cuts and practice dropping your chin into the cut. Eventually you will get so good that he will never get to your throat.

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 12-14-00 at 02:06 AM.]

I don't claim to know the solutions to the problem. I don't even have one...but watching Obiwan harping on about nonsense is ticking me OFF. I'm a fencer for God's sake, I deal with blades at a distance not up close and personal...that's why I picked up a CMA to try and add knowledge to my existing skills...I come to the table with my glass half empty but Obiwan seems to have a overwhelming glass of knowledge in a subject which he clearly, has little knowledge about.

Okay, so fencing isn't the be all or end all of fencing of blade fighting...I never claimed that but what these guys are doing is sacralige to a fencer. They claim that up and personal knife fighting is the same as fighting with a longer blade...complete tripe...it's like saying Grappling is the same fighting style as the normal standing combat that we do...sure they cross over but these guys don't acknowledge even that...they're the same...I'm just getting sick of know-it-alls.

[TaoBoxer]

I have personally witnessed dozens of cases of soft tissue trauma to the neck. The best option is to NOT let it happen, but if it DOES happen, this may help you survive the event.

PS......Who cares if you esophogus is severed?? They have to get through your Trachea to get to it first.....which is a bit more important.

Bill

[JerryLove]

You still here Lardball? I mean, it's obvious you created that ID to come on this thread and *****. But you haven't offered any suggestions, just insulted others.

That fencing (I have several years myself) is unrelated to grappling for control of a knife is an understatement. There is a little in common when squared off with a knife, but from the positions being discussed fencing is useless.

"I'm sick of people who don't know squat about what they're talking about taking the floor and trying to be the Jerry Springer know-it-all"

I have trained over half-a-decade in a primarily knife-art. I have trained under people who had to use those skills in combat. I also have experience as a fencer (epee mostly) and in HACA-style combat. What are your qualifications again?

Actually never mind qualifications... Prove your opinion is worth something by saying something useful.

[Knifefighter]

Mr. Lardball:
While Obiwan’s observation on how to fight by watching movies won’t get him very far in learning how to use a blade for real, he is actually on the right track in his thinking about not being cut (although, not quite there). If he and Jerry keep debating, they may get to the answer, as they have each hit on parts of it in their posts above. Sometimes the solution lies outside the box.

Jerry:
Knife fighting definitely is not fencing, but there are some crossover principles between the two. I have a few years of fencing myself and use some of the techniques when I spar against other knife practitioners. You are right about fencing not being any use from the position being described.

Tao Boxer:
My bad- I meant the trachea, not the esophagus. Same ending though. If anyone is ever to take a slice at my neck, however, you can bet I will be dropping my chin rather than raising it.

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 12-14-00 at 02:18 PM.]

Don't flatter yourself, me signing up just for you? Oh, how cute...you want to hold hands?
Sorry, but I'm straight thanks.

Half a decade...wow...half a decade....Why can't you just say five years? Oh, it doesn't sound that impressive anymore...crap...Who is the pretentious son of a lepered ***** now?

Let me reiterate, for those a little too dim-witted to realise, means go over again... I don't have a solution, never have never will. But I just want to clarify the fact that what you guys are doing doesn't make much sense to me...you taking things out of context from two very different areas of combat and using them in the same place. Something which I think doesn't make much sense.

Okay, I'll level with you, I'll say something useful. A blade to the neck is not going to be forced perpendicular easily...first lesson in sabre. There is two parts of a blade theres the sharp bits..sharpened sides and theres the other non sharp sides. Unless you can have a four sided blade (which I don't think exists) you can't be cut. Force it onto the flat and see if they can still cut you. Surely if you can force the blade perpendicular to the throat; you can flip the blade to the flat side.

There you go Jerry...an opinion.

*GO JERRY!*
*GO JERRY!*
*GO JERRY!*
Yes, I have a sense of humour.

[JerryLove]

"Don't flatter yourself, me signing up just for you? Oh, how cute...you want to hold hands?
Sorry, but I'm straight thanks."

Since your account was created you have made three posts, all on this thread, all involving me. You seem to either want to date Obiwan or myself.

"Half a decade...wow...half a decade....Why can't you just say five years? Oh, it doesn't sound that impressive anymore...crap...Who is the pretentious son of a lepered ***** now?"

I could have said 43,800 hours. *That* would be pretentious. And I think 5 years sounds fine.

"I don't have a solution, never have never will. But I just want to clarify the fact that what you guys are doing doesn't make much sense to me..."

And yet it makes sense to each of us. Are you sure we are the ones too dimwitted to understand?

"you taking things out of context from two very different areas of combat and using them in the same place."

OK, I must be the dim one because I don't have any idea what to areas of ccombat you are referring to. We are discussing grappling for a control of a weapon. The only person I see bringing up another unrelated area of combat (fencing) is you.

"Okay, I'll level with you, I'll say something useful. A blade to the neck is not going to be forced perpendicular easily..."

What perpendicular to what? The blade to the neck? I'd assume that's the way the attacker placed it.

"first lesson in sabre. There is two parts of a blade theres the sharp bits..sharpened sides and theres the other non sharp sides."

When was the last time you got whacked by the flat (the non-sharp bit) of the blade? You can't wrap your hand around only that part. I understand what you are saying but I miss the part where it relates to grappling for control of a knife.

"Unless you can have a four sided blade (which I don't think exists)"

It does, but since I doubt that was considered the blade pulled on you, I'll pretend it doesn't.

"you can't be cut. Force it onto the flat and see if they can still cut you."

By "it" do you mean your neck? You'll find there is more than enough torque in the attacker's hold of the knife to rotate that blade to point at your neck. It can also be pulled out and stabbed back in.

"Surely if you can force the blade perpendicular to the throat; you can flip the blade to the flat side."

I have yet to see a knifefighter succeed at either. And any manipulation of what knife edge is pointing at you (such as Mr.Rovere's suggestion) is centered around manipulation of the arm and hand, not the knife itself.

Of course none of this is related to the conversation between Obi and myself that you decided to interject your drivil into. That was over the simple question of weather it was possible to keep a hand around the blade of a knife being wielded against you.

[JerryLove]

OK, let me try that again.

Mr.Lardball, I apriciate your attempt to accomidate my insistance on offering material in your post. Having reread your second post, I see that you have specific issue with something Obi is saying (I can only presume it to be the same thing I am at issue with him on). My I suggest being more specific in your criticism so as to avoid some of this confusion.

What CMA are you taking, if I may ask. I find that they don't tend to be the best arts for a knife discussion, though I certainly have not seen them all.

I don't see what two desperate areas of combat you see bing mixed improperly, could you be more specific?

I think you'll find that someone wielding a knife is typically much more able to control weather the blade or flat is pressing against his adversary than said adversary. This is because a good grip on the handle is superior to a grip anywhere else on the knife.

I don't remember any techniques in fencing to arrange to get hit with the flat of the blade, but as I mentioned, I used epees (thrusting not slashing weapons). I have had people try this unarmed against a katana. They could not avoid the sharp bits.

[JWTAYLOR]

I would say that raising your chin is a very bad idea, but for a different reason than you two are debating.
The tighter a surface is stretched, the easier it cuts. Anyone who has ever shaved realizes this.
I do allot of hunting. Weather it's a deer, a pig, a havelina, goat, whatever, I pull it's head up before I cut it's throat. It makes the cutting allot easier.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Knifefighter]

I have been playing with knives for close to a quarter of a century. Yeah, I like the sound of that. It does make me sound old, though.

JWT:
Excellent point.

Jerry Love:
I too had trouble following just what the heck Lardball is talking about.

Jerry & Obi:
Come on guys. Keep working on it. Don't make me give yu the answer :eek:

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 12-15-00 at 01:45 PM.]